DMQ Aaaaaargh

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jingzy

Well-Known Member
OK, here is a start, but lets see if we can keep this civil and on topic as this subject seems to creep into other topics for no aparent reason.

I have also set up a poll, so please look at it and vote. :rolleyes:

Many people for whatever reason have chosen to get deer management qualifications. What we have to ask ourselves is, are they required? I for one think they are. At what level they go to is up for a whole range of discussion and rants.

DSC 1, yes I think it is required to give beginners and some more experienced people the base knowledge of deer required. It also gives good safe practices with rifles and more recently gives you the trained hunter status. :D

DSC 2, if you are controlling deer and are only feeding yourself, then no it is not really required. If you are supplying deer into the food chain, then yes I do believe that you should do it to prove that what was learned in DSC 1 can be put into practice in a hygienic fashion. :D

Deer managers course, very interesting but not required for the supply of deer into the food chain.

Should any future courses be developed? I think the driving forces behind these should be careful as the reason for another course would have to be well thought out and hold good weight and ready for critiscism. The development of another course could also dilute the presence and standard of the current qualifications. :evil:

I await and look forward to the replies.

Jingzy
 
D

Davie

Guest
Dmq 1 i Believe this is a good test and the base for safe firearm use.What i will say is it is just as dangerous to shoot other animals with firearms eg lamp foxes etc and if they are making this the start level then i feel the safety part of the test and the actual shooting part of the test should become universal .

dmq 2 If you are eating the meat your self then you should know if its safe . This knowledge has been learned on the first coarse so should not be forced up you .
I have had four chaps rushing to get lev 2 because if they didn't get it before august this year they were getting kicked off there shooting by the FC . PROOF THAT THIS IS NOT WORKING AND IS BEING FORCED ON US.

most PEOPLE TO THE EXAMS I FEEL BECAUSE THEY NEW THIS IS THE WAY IT WOULD GO SOON AS THE MONEY LADS GOT A HOLD OF THE COARSE .

When i sat mine it cost me 36 pounds and i provided the ground not bad now its 90 pounds some inflation :p
 

swampy

Well-Known Member
courses

I believe that we should have a firearms handling course that should be mandatory prior to the grant of a centrefire rifle. There is a gulf of difference between rimfire and even calibres like .17 rem or .222. Of course the adminsitration of this would be placed, ideally, in the civillian firearms licensing authorities responsibility.

of course i know this is a contraversial suggestion and many will view it as another burden to remove our rights. however, with rights come responsibilities and this might be a way of making sure some of these were met better.

swampy
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
As we have managed all the years with out manditory training, and as we in the UK have a very good safety record, I vote for why change? What problem are we trying to address?

No matter how good the intentions are for the introduction of such training/testing, the anti's will use it to restrict us further...
 

Richard Parsons

Well-Known Member
I did DSC1 last November for my own education , nothing more.
I was staggered about how much I learned and came away elated when I passed all the tests first go. Hugely beneficial in every way, but as far as being compulsory, I'm not sure.
 

techman

Well-Known Member
DMQ Aaaaaargh

Jingzy,
You only need a Game Meat Handling certificate for Large Game to put meat into the food chain.
It's only the Forestry Commission and the likes that insist on Levels 1 & 2 to cover their own backs.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 

jingzy

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely correct, you do only need a meat handling certificate. As far as the DSC 2 goes, I think agencies like FE had input into some of the requirements of the course content.

6.5,
I know what you mean with FE forcing the issue through with minimum qualifications, but for those that have FE ground they have known for at leat 18 months that this year was the deadline. For at least 4 years they have harped on about the qualifications, but it is only now that they are starting to enforce.
What used to annoy me was, they were one of the driving forces behind the qualifications, yet when some members applied for ground, people with no qualifications got the ground prior to a DSC 2 qualified person. :evil: At least now they are using a benchmark for their ground. :D

J
 

Nick Gordon

Well-Known Member
My vote is that Level 1 was, is, and always be a money spinning exercise for the bodies running the courses.

I along with a cople of friends sat our Level 1 at Comrie over two weekends a few years ago now.

It was quite apparent that a number of the lectures were there to fill in the time to try and justify holding the course and exam over four days :!:

For example, a red deer stalker of over 30 years experience asked one of the lecturers just how he was supposed to carry all the recommended equipment up on to the hill with him only to be to be given a shrug of the shoulders.

The only reason we went on the course was to avoid losing our ground, otherwise it was a complete waste of my time.

Are the land agents running scared of the compensation based society we appear to be living in?

Why else are they insisting on qualifications before allowing a quad bike to be used by stalkers, risk assesments and first aid certificates, etc?

As for Level 2, I am sorry but as far as I'm concerned, the only thing it "proves" is that you stalked and shot the required number of deer, and that you gralloched and inspected them all to a satisfactory standard then correctly answered a number of questions - nothing more.

In my opinion, it is like siiting your driving test. You will do it a certain way to pass.

If they make Level 2 compulsory as appears inevitable, then I will have to think long and hard before I sign up for it.

Nick
 
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Davie

Guest
One of the chaps is new to stalking jingzy and the other has only been stalking for 3 years and is still learning, the ground is in the borders and i have been told today that one lad has been expelled . He will be let back in when his lev 2 is complete. Now 300 wsm asks were are the hurdles. My god you would need to be a retard not to see that the more you need to do to follow your chosen (hobbies ) the more chance there is of taking an easier path maybe we should all sit back and let be that way all the AW,S AND INTERNAL VERIFIERS COLLEGES AND OTHER BLOOD SUCKING PARRASITES TAKE ALL OUR HARD EARNED CASH IN THE NAME OF PROGRESS .
;)
 

cjm1066

Well-Known Member
Training and awards show competence, that can influence a landowner (and his insurance company) in letting stalking.

The police are inventing DSC1 requirements and now supervision clauses, not based on any incidents but solely by administrate means – look at the whole raft of conditions they impose that in many cases are already law.

However, target shooters and deer stalkers stalkers have schemes (DSC1/probationary periods), fox and rimfire shooters don’t – a firearms handling course based on DSC1 would probably be a useful. But this also apples to shotgun users, who have had BASC’s proficiency award scheme for years – with minimal take up.

But isn’t training fun, don’t you learn something on each course, meet new people. It’s easy to be cynical about the motives of those running courses, far harder to deliver improvements.

Most of us in our working lives have to keep up-to-date via training, to extend that to our sport is only apply similar standards – is anything less acceptable.
 

swampy

Well-Known Member
bloodsuckers

6.5 x 55 said:
AW,S AND INTERNAL VERIFIERS COLLEGES AND OTHER BLOOD SUCKING PARRASITES TAKE ALL OUR HARD EARNED CASH IN THE NAME OF PROGRESS .
;)

what about the AW's and trained assessors who have volunteered to take me out as i work towards my level 2? none of them have asked for money. Whos blood are they sucking? i think it is very reasonable of them to offer to pass on thier knowledge and skills to me.

i have offered to mentor quite a number of people on here and i am currently mentoring 3 novice stalkers. I put people up and feed them and give them the cacass. I am hoping that i will work up to AW standard. at that point i will continue in the same vien.

We have seen one of our members make a post where he has spoken about what most would consider to be bad practise. How can we criticise him in one breath and in the next say we disapprove of mentoring and DSC courses?

swampy
 
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Davie

Guest
This is not personal Steve this is an over view there are a few good lads but the majority are as described . I my self help as many as i can because if we don't the new lads will be put off stalking seeing it as a sport for the rich when in fact it is a rich sport.
 

swampy

Well-Known Member
agreed

6.5
i agree we all should do our best to help.

that is the problem when you make such sweeping statements. everyone is counted in.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
6.5 x 55 said:
This is not personal Steve this is an over view there are a few good lads but the majority are as described . I my self help as many as i can because if we don't the new lads will be put off stalking seeing it as a sport for the rich when in fact it is a rich sport.

So have you put your name down to be an AW? Or at the least, a Credible Witness???

An as to the FC, the Level 2 requirement has been on the cards for a long while...There is nothing compelling your friends to stalk on FC land..if they want to do it, they can get their Level 2 and do the yearly shooting test as the rest of us and the Rangers do...As the FC own the shooting rights, they are perfectly entitled to write the rules. My main objection is when those rules are not applied universally or if this Level 2 requirement had been sprung on them after they had paid their money...
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
Nick Gordon said:
As for Level 2, I am sorry but as far as I'm concerned, the only thing it "proves" is that you stalked and shot the required number of deer, and that you gralloched and inspected them all to a satisfactory standard then correctly answered a number of questions - nothing more.

In my opinion, it is like siiting your driving test. You will do it a certain way to pass.
Nick

Nick,

That is exactly what the Level 2 is; nothing more or less...Why is that so contentious? I don't ever recall it was being proof that the holder is some sort of super stalker, just that they know the basics, and have demonstrated that in a practical manner...If someone has been stalking many years, it should be a mere formality, surely?

As the question about Estates worrying about liability, unfortunately you are 100% correct...Its not so much that you may hurt yourself, but also that you may hurt others who then claim against the Estate.

Also the Estate is require to comply with all the various health and safety legislation plus other related laws otherwise they could face prosecution in a criminal court never mind liability claims..

Did you read a few months ago about the Antis' who got off a charge in court as they were able to demonstrate that as the Shoot had no written Risk Assessment they were therefore not acting legally themselves? That principle alone is going to have serious repercussions on the way things are run....

Staking and Game shooting are no longer seen as a Sport, but as industries which are subject to regulation like every other..

This not how I would have chosen things to go, but its not really down to us..Either we comply with the regulations, or face the possible consequences...

Regards,

Pete
 
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Davie

Guest
You are right Pete i do as many credible stalks as i can and most on my own ground . ;) I did apply to be a AW and was put in touch with a chap that would sponsor me as this was the criteria the chap who was to sponsor me made it a requirement that i go down to his area and take a few clients out for him and also take a few out on my own ground for roe deer as he didn't have access to many. So i declined the very good offer and went on my way ;)
With regards the FC ground i do agree that the majority of lads have had plenty of time and most have completed there lev 2 at great expense to there selves with regards access to other stalking because the FC (GOVERNMENT ) own most of the commercial forests we have then some of the chaps are finding it hard to obtain shooting any were else.
So if you have no sympathy Pete e for the chaps that are only in the stalking game for a short time and are required to rush through a level 2 to keep there stalking that's understandable because i am sure you are in the i am alright jack club :lol:
I am sure that club you belong to dosnt even let you stalk on your own foe years and even when they do they expect you to follow coloured path way etc.
You see PETE E somepeople need a helping hand not a kick to the nuts from the Hubert club . :lol:
 

charadam

Well-Known Member
Pete E said "Either we comply with the regulations, or face the possible consequences... "

And there I think, is the rub.

We of the stalking fraternity are practical sportsmen and dare I suggest it - tending to the reactionary? I do not mean that in any political sense, simply that we possibly believe that methods proven by use through many generations are worth retaining.

We are a sizeable minority comprised essentially of (rugged to one degree or another) individualists participating in a traditional activity and are at the top of the food chain in a very literal sense.

I have a 30-year gap in my stalking. In the sixties, with a motor bike, a sporterised Lee Enfield and permission on 20,000 acres I was in clover.

Times have changed and I may well have to comply with the regulations (and I will!) - but I don't have to even pretend to like it.

Charles
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
6.5 x 55 said:
You are right Pete i do as many credible stalks as i can and most on my own ground . ;)

So that means your mates can have at least two of their witnessed stalks done for free? And in fairly short order? Which is great and what I am all for...


6.5 x 55 said:
I did apply to be a AW and was put in touch with a chap that would sponsor me as this was the criteria the chap who was to sponsor me made it a requirement that i go down to his area and take a few clients out for him and also take a few out on my own ground for roe deer as he didn't have access to many. So i declined the very good offer and went on my way ;)

I don't blame you for declining his kind "offer".. I would too...Why not bring it to the attention of DMQ HQ by dropping them an email...Last year a number of names were pruned off the AW list and unofficially, I suspect some were removed for sharp practice..At the very last you could ask to be put in contact with another Assessor ...The guy who sponsored me was the complete opposite and just as much against blatant commercialization as we are...

6.5 x 55 said:
With regards the FC ground i do agree that the majority of lads have had plenty of time and most have completed there lev 2 at great expense to there selves with regards access to other stalking because the FC (GOVERNMENT ) own most of the commercial forests we have then some of the chaps are finding it hard to obtain shooting any were else.
So if you have no sympathy Pete e for the chaps that are only in the stalking game for a short time and are required to rush through a level 2 to keep there stalking that's understandable because i am sure you are in the i am alright jack club :lol:

Sympathy doesn't get you anywhere in this world...I am not one of the (very) lucky people who have stalking on their door steps and I have always had to travel to get places on a lease ect. Myself and probably many other people on this site have been, or are still in, the same boat as your mates but however much you moan about it, the FC and other Forestry Company's do own the sporting rights and they therefore get to write the rules..

As mentioned earlier, we are now part of an industry and not just a sport and the FC and others are simply covering their own backs; its the reality of the world we live in I'm afraid...

6.5 x 55 said:
I am sure that club you belong to dosnt even let you stalk on your own foe years and even when they do they expect you to follow coloured path way etc.

Not sure what the Club has to do with this, other than they stalk FC ground and so like everybody are being subject to the same sort of tightening of regulations..

6.5 x 55 said:
You see PETE E somepeople need a helping hand not a kick to the nuts from the Hubert club . :lol:

Not sure why the Club is considered to be kicking anybody in the nuts when one of their primary missions is to offer members training and stalking at affordable prices...The reason we can do that is because existing members chose to donate their time to help others....A bit like whats going on here really.... So maybe its me you feel who is kicking people in the nuts? Not really...instead of moaning about something I can't change, I am simply in favour of doing something positive instead....In your case, I would be pushing and helping these guys get there Level 2...If thats seen as a kick in the nuts, well maybe some need it to get them going! :D

Regards,

Pete
 
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