DSC 1

I have recently taken up stalking and received my FAC. As can be seen from a couple of my other posts on here I am a complete beginner to stalking and centrefire rifles although I have been shooting clays, game and vermin for a number of years.

The question I have is this - my FAC has a supervision condition on it which can be discharged by either an experienced rifle shooter writing a letter to the FLO when they feel I am safe to shoot unaccompanied or by taking and passing my DSC 1. Is the DSC a worthwhile investment or I would I be better sticking to accruing experience?

Thought I would test the wealth of knowledge on here before parting with my pennies!
 

Farmboyuk

Well-Known Member
There's nothing that beats experience and actually 'doing it' especially under the guidance of a good mentor. However the DSC 1 is a good course and IMHO it is worth the money :eek: . Not just what you will learn from the actual course but from the other participants as well . May pick up some useful contacts for the future as well.
My advice is pick your course and venue wisely and enjoy :)
Regards FB
 

buckup

Well-Known Member
Hi Chris,
I think you will enjoy, and learn a lot from the DSC1 sylabus.
I would not do it solely to help remove the mentor restriction on your licence. My issuing authority had no idea what the course involved, despite suggesting it would help get one of the restrictions lifted from my licence previously. When I asked them to give me an open ticket I was told the DSC1 was of no importance, and "is more about recognising the species than safety". Perhaps the licencing authority should study for the DSC1 before getting their jobs!
I now have an open licence, but NOT as a result of passing the DSC1.
Good luck mate, do it for yourself, not for them.
Mark
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
Chris

I did my DSC1 some years ago at Cirencester through the BDS. I thoroughly enjoyed it, learned a lot and met some great people.

As others say, do the course for that reason, not just as a way of removing restrictions on your ticket, and you will get a lot out of it. Recognise the course for what it is - a foundation upon which to build experience in the future, rather than any sort of "qualified stalker" accreditation.

Having done my DSC1 I then went for, and passed, my DSC2. It is much more practical, but again doesn't qualify you as some sort of 'super-stalker'.

I did the courses because I'm interested in deer and deer management and recognised that your experiences on courses like these - whether those experiences are good and bad - all helps to increase your knowledge.

If you're new to stalking then my personal view is that the DSC1 would be money well spent. Once you've done it, it's done, and you can then go on to learning from deer in the real world. Most, if not all, that I've learned about the practicalities of stalking and deer management I've learned from the friend who started me stalking and has been kind enough to continue to mentor me.

willie_gunn
 

jack

Well-Known Member
I assume that the two criteria you mention are the only ones which your force policy will allow you to stalk alone.
I had was in a similar situation just over a year ago and I did DSC1. I find myself now going to Country Pursuits in Cricklade to get the advice of Wilf who runs stalking training courses, not DSC1 though. He used to be deer manager on Longleat IIRC. He is well thought of. He says he has taken people on his training course who have passed DSC1 but who did not feel confident about deer stalking.
I did DSC1 under protest. The training providers objectives were to get us to pass DSC1 and no more. So go figure.
It depends where you will stalk, some organisations like the forestry commission require DSC2 IIRC and as DSC1 is a recognised as a stalking qualification then some may ask for it.. If you have land to stalk and intend going no further then go out with a mentor, so long as they are not suggested by plod. Be very careful about allowing anyone you do not trust to be your mentor. There is the potential for them to cozy up to the farmer and you lose your shoot.
It may be better to do DSC1 then learn to stalk afterwards, you do get the food hygiene component in DSC1 which will allow you to sell carcases to game dealers but you get a pittance for them so you will probably keep all you shoot.. DSC1 teaches you some basics. We sat in a classroom for two days going through the questions in the manual and then sitting the exam. and we then did the simulated stalk and the shooting test.
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
jack

"The training providers objectives were to get us to pass DSC1 and no more. So go figure."

I'm with you 100%, but personally I'd be more worried if I paid my money, went to the course and their objective wasn't to get me to pass DSC1 :D

BTW, I agree about Wilf - great guy, very helpful, very experienced. It was through him that I got into reloading.

willie_gunn
 

243varmint

Well-Known Member
Why do police forces 'make' you take the DSC 1 when it is not legally required to obtain a FAC.
I have a supervision on my ticket from west mercier but there was no mention of the DSC 1 being a clause in obtaining it when I asked.
Once again it needs a central body to look after all these issues regarding firearms and people with knowledge of firearms running it. IMO
Jonathon
 

snowstorm

Well-Known Member
All the police asses is whether you are fit and proper, not whether you are any good or safe. DSC comes closest cos there's a safety element to it. A mentor/supervisor is the other way to do it.

Either way it's the police way of moving responsibility. The other way is to make everyones ticket open, and it moves responsibility onto the shooter, but they can't really justify that for new applicants. Not even me!

It's not their fault, as they have no effective means to know if you are safe in practice or not, but are expected to make that judgement.

They know most people find FAC conditions difficult to challenge.

I didn't have DSC1 as a condition on mine, nor did I have to have a mentor, but my situation meant they couldn't really say no.
 

243varmint

Well-Known Member
snowstorm said:
All the police asses is whether you are fit and proper, not whether you are any good or safe. DSC comes closest cos there's a safety element to it. A mentor/supervisor is the other way to do it.

Either way it's the police way of moving responsibility. The other way is to make everyones ticket open, and it moves responsibility onto the shooter, but they can't really justify that for new applicants. Not even me!

It's not their fault, as they have no effective means to know if you are safe in practice or not, but are expected to make that judgement.

They know most people find FAC conditions difficult to challenge.

I didn't have DSC1 as a condition on mine, nor did I have to have a mentor, but my situation meant they couldn't really say no.
The last paragraph ?????????????????
Jonathon
 

basil

Distinguished Member
When Andy received his letter for supervising my stalking, it stated that they wanted him to train me to DSC1 standard. Not that i had to do the course as well.
basil.
 

snowstorm

Well-Known Member
Gotcha Jonathan, 6 weeks of childminding has turned my brains to mush.

I have a bit of land so I have a legal duty to keep deer under control, and I have right to protect the spruce which is a cash crop. Ultimately I made the case on business reasons.

Had they started placing onerous restrictions on me I would have had to fomally challenge them as there would have been financial implications. I tried to do myself a few favours as well though - I played it honest, joined a club first, went through their safety and rifle handling training, got to be a full member so tried to show I had the right attitude, I did the DSC reading and exams on a DVD (because I want to learn as well) and got all the safety ones right, and told them that.

They were OK about it all in the end.

We discussed DSC during my FLO visit and she asked if I was going to do it anytime soon. 'No thank you' I said. 'Ok' she said.

The only condition was that any land I shot on was cleared. No probs there.

Having said that, I could have done none of the above stuff and still got the FAC.
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
I don't know if people have seen this:

http://www.dmq.org.uk/news.htm

Basically anyone who did DSC1 prior to 1st Jan 2006 can contact DMQ and convert their old certificate to a new one that includes "trained hunter" status for large game, allowing you to sell carcasses into the human food chain. From 31st March 2009 this facility will be withdrawn, so might be worth dusting down your old certificate and getting it changed.

Any certificates issued since 1st Jan 2006 included "trained hunter" status automatically.

willie_gunn
 
Thanks for the replies so far, I had not viewed the DSC 1 purely as a means of discharging the supervision condition but also as a learning process. I realise that it is only a drop in the ocean of knowledge required but think that based on the feedback to date I will take the course.

I do not as yet have any permissions of my with large heads of deer so this will be my next task after DSC to locate a suitable patch! If anyone knows of any contacts in the Shropshire/North Herefordshire area I'd be grateful.
 
D

Davie

Guest
.

Any certificates issued since 1st Jan 2006 included "trained hunter" status automatically.

willie_gunn

Any change will cost money i am told £15 ddon'tknow if this can be justified as it will mean all ccertificatesare not worth the paper there printed on . I would like to know how BASC stand on this as it is there phone number on the link and Mandy at DMQ answers directly to BASC when phoned


Come on David at BASC THIS IS HOW PEOPLE GET REALLY ****ED OFF ITS CALLED LEGAL THEFT IN MY BOOK.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
Not sure what the problem is here..

When the DMQ 1 was first introduced there was no Trained Hunter requirement nor was there any indication of the latest Meat and Hygine Regs which have driven these changes.

When these changes occurred , BASC/BDS/DMQ altered the Level 1 to take into account of the new requirements. As doing this alone would have left previous holders out in the cold, they provided a facility for existing users to update their older certificates for an admin charge.

IIRC BASC provide you with a link to the additional material regarding the new regs, and to update your present certificate you have to sign a declartion you've read and understood this material.

As BASC/BDS/DMQ were not responsible for introducing the new regulations, the provision of an update facility for older certificates at a minimal cost seems a very reasonable course of action to deal with the problem, far better than holders being required to do the full one day course just to enable them to demonstrate they meet the requirements of a Trained Hunters.
 

jack

Well-Known Member
243varmint said:
Why do police forces 'make' you take the DSC 1 when it is not legally required to obtain a FAC.
I have a supervision on my ticket from west mercier but there was no mention of the DSC 1 being a clause in obtaining it when I asked.
Once again it needs a central body to look after all these issues regarding firearms and people with knowledge of firearms running it. IMO
Jonathon
Each Police force formulate their own policy and can ask or demand that shooters comply with it or the shooter does not get the rifles they seek. It is expensive to challenge any refusal from plod as it involves Crown Court appeal involving a solicitor and a barrister and £3k, sadly that is the reality. And plod knows it.
Some forces offer centrefire on first application and make informed judgements about your suitability to hold the rifle, others demand you satisfy their policy to a blanket level, ie every one has to satisfy the policy, which is illegal but expensive to challenge.
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
Further to Pete E's comments, there's no question of the old certificates "not worth the paper there printed on ".

The new requirements are EU requirements, see:

http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/foodindustry/regulation/europeleg/eufoodhygieneleg/

To my understanding - and I have no relationship with these organisations other than membership - BASC, BDS, DMQ, etc worked hard to ensure DSC1 covered you for "Trained Hunter" status. This is great for people who took their DSC1 after 1 Jan 2006, but if you don't bother changing your old certificate you still have your DSC1, all it means is that you can't sell carcasses into the human food chain. You can always gain "Trained Hunter" status in other ways if you don't want to update your certificate.

By all means complain, but to the EU!!

willie_gunn
 
D

Davie

Guest
What work did BASC DO willie you said they worked hard well so did i for my paper work that is now not worth a **** and if a a EU directive comes in for anything else then it will be your lev two not worth a **** unless you give us .15- 20 30 50 POUNDS FOR OUR ADMIN COSTS . lets SMELL THE COFFEE HERE the eu are changing things all the time it dose not mean your pass certificate should be out of date . Christ its a good job every time the changed the driving test to meet EU standards we don't have to resit it again or pay for a add on . Now basc took my money for LEV they then took my cash for lev 2. So were do i stand for a refund and they can fecking ram them both till it all settles down and they no what end they are shitting out of.
 

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