DSC AW & Assessor Competence

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
Having just read the thread on assessing/observing the gralloch for the DCS2 award I was wondering if any moderation or standardisation takes place for folk involved in assessing and/or observing candidates.

While certainly not a deer or stalking expert I can claim to be, and demonstrate that I am, an experienced and competent vocational assessor and verifier. I wouldn't dream of commenting on the right or wrong method however, I find the discrepancy in interpretation of the DMQ Standard, incomprehensible. I support and manage a number of vocational assessment teams operating across a range of topic areas. If any of them demonstrated that variation of interpretation of performance criteria I would top myself for being utterly useless at my job!

Is anyone conducting standardisation sessions for the assessment team? If not, surely the whole qualification falls at the first quality hurdle?
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
"While certainly not a deer or stalking expert I can claim to be, and demonstrate that I am, an experienced and competent vocational assessor and verifier."
That's the bit I cannot understand. I have introduced and trained persons in Deer recognition and management and after a very short while I see their names appearing as Assessors, Verifiers, Trainers, Deer Managers and experts in their own right, yet it was not so long ago they regarded Deer as four legged targets and didn't know the difference between a Buck and a Stag nor Fawns and Kids!!
 

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
EMcC said:
"While certainly not a deer or stalking expert I can claim to be, and demonstrate that I am, an experienced and competent vocational assessor and verifier."
That's the bit I cannot understand.
Sorry Ed, not making myself clear. I don't have anything at all to do with assessing or witnessing any stalking qualifications. What I can do is demonstrate my competence to assess and verify qualfications in areas in which I am 'vocationally competent' - which happens to include 'Learning & Development'.

Pete E and 300wsm describe normal NVQ assessment practice. However, the variations in interpretation of how the gralloch should be performed would indicate that standardisation is not effective across the assessment team, which is a problem to be addressed by the internal verifier(s).

I don't know what the current DSC standard says but I revisited my portfolio (2/11/99) and Unit 2 - Prepare Deer for Storage, PC 2.3 says "Carcass is bleed and gralloched correctly." Key Features - Carcass bled & gralloched correctly, minimising the risk of contamination. Etc. No mention of tying or not tying any tubes, with or wthout cable ties. Obviously this is open to interpretation. If your AW or assessor is a real zealot in the extreme they could say the only way to "minimise the risk" would be to immediately wrap entire carcass in cling film and get a helicopter to winch it out to the squeaky clean larder.

If there are any DMQ assessors or IVs on the site it would be interesting to get their inetrpretation of what constitutes "minimising the risk".

I would look up my old DSC course notes - even though they are nearly ten years old - but I gave them to Varmint243. If you are reading this Jon perhaps you could have a quick look and give me a ring? :)
 

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
All quite right and proper but my question remains. Why is there such an apparent discrepancy in what is deemed competent or not yet competent when assessing the gralloch. Essentially, how people define 'hygienically'? Surely this should have been moderated and standardised long ago? 300wsm's interpretation may well differ from some other assessor or AW and we then don't actually have a 'Standard' just personal interpretation.

"Hygienically", it's a bit like saying it's windy. Your windy may be different to my windy, but the Beaufort Scale - a common standard - is precise.
 

Muddy

Well-Known Member
level 2

Hygienically means what it says any part of a carcass that has any contamination is not hygienic grass leaves heather such like are foreign bodies these can be washed of . Green **** out of the gut cant be effectively washed out all you do is spread it into other places the only way to get rid of it is trim out -off the contaminated area and throw it away . What you must realize is E COLI is in the gut as is salmonella and loads of other bacteria that will make us ill.so it is our duty to produce clean safe carcasses to enter the food chain this is were the trained hunter comes into play you are now responsible for any thing you sell to a game dealer ect . This is why most estates have there own tags all food should be traceable . I over the years have dragged hundreds probably thousands of deer of the hill just removing the guts as this is the most practical way to do things and still will do. but if you are being tested on your skills then you must do what ever is necessary to show the person watching you that you can do it in a clean hygienic manner producing a clean safe carcass if this means tying of the osphegus its no big deal . 300wsm is correct in what he says if you are tested on something the human element will come into it there is more than one way to skin a cat but the finished artical must be presentable and free of any contamination ready to go into the food chain . Alot of stalker dont realize they are responsible for this more and more game dealers are refusing deer on different grounds they are now being inspected by MHS staff and vets its there liecence at stake here they could be shut down or made to dispose of game contaminated in any way game they have paid for this is why they are getting picky . If i was presented with a carcass that could not be trimmed to remove contamination it would be binned and would not enter the food chain full stop food safety is paramount and its our duty to comply with it
 

Nick Gordon

Well-Known Member
You're on on pheasant shoot with your dog picking up.

The dog has been working and is thirsty - he stops to drink from a puddle or a burn or whatever.

The next bird he goes for is a hard hit runner which he beings back alive or crushed.

Surely that pheasant has the potential for being contaminated by the dog and shouldn't enter the food chain?

In fact, if you take it to the extereme any game bird that has been shot then picked by a dog has this problem- being picked up by a dog's mouth :!:

When I picked up on a regular basis, most pickers up used game bages which were obviously filled with warm pheasants as the drive went on. Very few used game carriers because of their limited carrying capacity.

At the end of the drive the pheasants were then literally dumped in a big heap on the floor of the game cart. The guy in charge of the cart inevitably couldn't keep up on some big shoot days.


It strikes me that, on one view, there is one set of rules for deer and another for game birds, the deer rules being more strict or is that stalkers are more aware of their responsibilities?

Nick
 

Muddy

Well-Known Member
picking up with a dog

i run two shoots and beat and pick up on others what is being disgust and as far as deer is concerned is internal contamination ie spillage of gut contents when gralloching . This is totaly different to game birds being retrieved by a dog as the dogs only contact with the bird is the feathers these are not for human consumption so it is totaly different . You could say any bird that hits the floor is contaminated then , game bags are not recommended as birds do not cool down in one but depending on time scale it is acceptable, game carriers are far better but as you say some times dont hold enough birds piles of birds on the floor waiting to be braced up is a common thing as you say but providing they are not on a pile of crapp this is acceptable . If you read guide lines on feathered game as long as they dont fall in areas where pigs are, or onto ground where muck has been spread and not ploughed in especially human waste which in my area is being used more and more there should not be a problem . Game dealers should hang deer up when collecting them, but just chuck game birds onto the floor most times this seems an acceptable practice .I think we are starting to split hairs here best practice is not always observed and there are to many guidelines if what you are doing is producing an artical that is FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION then there should not be a problem at all
 

morena

Well-Known Member
Have posted this as may be of interest to some. Have noticed on the 2 shoots I beat/pickup they are taking more care but we still don't have a written health and safety policy.
Though we do have Lord G Deare as a gun ( former HM Inspector of Constabulary). Should be quite interesting if we are invaded.
m



 

morena

Well-Known Member
Hi Pete,
A Vet mate of mine has recently retired from the MHS and they are covering their backs the whole time. The whole thing is in a state of flux. I gave him the example of dragging a Red off the hill was not like a slaughter house, no guidance. If you are not too definite it gives you wriggle room. I was only a LVI (now called OV ). Everything gets passed up the chain of command.
m
 

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