electric cars,,,,

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
Stations set up to remove one battery pack and fit a fresh one will be quite expensive to operate.

1. Garage with vehicle lifts, parking, battery storage, bulk battery charging and offices.
2. Staff (wages, holidays and associated costs) Trained staff with 6-8-10 on duty 24 hours a day (fuel station one or two staff). Additional staff if it includes a shop.
It will not be just the cost of the electricity to charge to battery.
Every battery changing garage will need a stock of spare charged batteries so we will need 10 or 12 spare batteries X 8000 garages means 80,000 to 100,000 spare batteries.
Not very practical.

I work in a fuel station on my own and can refuel ( I do the filling not the customer) 100 cars a day and run the shop.
Expensive yes, but how is it any less practical than the stock of fossil fuel you currently have to invest in and store, or the staff costs to run? It is just another business model.

I would expect the the battery changeover would be automated, but even if done on a pitstop basis, the positive of more employment is not to be sneezed at.

It would need to be a battery hire charge and of course that would not just be the cost of the electricity to recharge. I could imagine the changeover and hire cost would likely be at a fixed rate with just the difference in charged states being the variable...the hire charge would include for battery purchase and depreciation as has already been mentioned a few times.

My sister and brother-in-law developed a one man filling station into a business which now employs some 50 or so people by diversifying and re-investment in stock and equipment, so I have an albeit second hand clue as to the practical possibility.

Alan
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
A garage will need far more than 10-12 spare batteries. It will need hundreds.
A pessimistic exaggeration surely?

Certainly more than 10 or 12 unless you can specify the time of day your customers arrive...but with 100 cars a day and even with just overnight charging a franchisee like @L1A1 would need the space to stock nearer the hundred, but not hundreds...

Alan
 

Freeforester

Well-Known Member
I just cannot see that battery driven vehicles are the way forward. they don't offer enough flexibility. They are maybe a part of the solution but not in general. We are going to have to make a massive shift in our thinking with regards to transport. Maybe in the future we will be able to take power wirelessly from the road surface or maybe we will finally crack fusion to create cheap abundant electricity that can be used to produce cheap and plentiful hydrogen. Whatever it is, there is going to have to be enormous sums of money invested in it.
IMG_2232.PNG
60 year old technology, way to go, but easy on the corners, lads!
 

Freeforester

Well-Known Member
So, are you saying that global warming is not true?

Cheers

Bruce
It certainly was when the vikings were hairstin' barley on Greenland (the clue is in the name, it stuck, but the fine weather back then didna!); there are no deposits of peat older than 2700 yrs, because before then, the globe was also warmer; this time round we are expected to pay for attempts to cool it by reducing a minor gaseous player (compared to water vapour, i.e. clouds). But Canutism is the new religion, adaptation is old school and 'not cricket', apparently.
 

Freeforester

Well-Known Member
Heard the revised date for banning fossil fueled cars on the radio this morning. All well and good (and I have nothing against pure electric cars if it suits your needs) but unless battery technology takes a huge leap forward in capacity and recharging time requirements this ban will be revoked/pushed back or life for some could become a nightmare. The most annoying thing about politicians is they always assume that society and business is urban based, they fail to take on board the fact that many people have to travel hundreds of miles daily such as reps etc. What about the likes of me, and there are many out there who sometimes need to make a journey of well over 500 miles in one day. In a nutshell unless there is a massive increase in the provision of very fast charging points all across the country how the hell is society going to function. Imagine if all cars were electric and only 10% of them needed to be charged whilst out and about there would have to be a massive land take just to provide space for charging points. The other point I have yet to see raised is how we are going to deal with what will undoubtedly be a huge number of cars who simply run out of juice on a journey due to either lack of planning or just an oversight on the range left in the battery, at the moment its a quick fix of a gallon of petrol gets you going again. If they had any sense the ban would not include plug in hybrids, just my take on things applying a little bit of common sense which always seems severely lacking with politicians.
And I'm guessing that once 35% of the green and pleasant land remaining has been afforested as per the guidelines of the required school text 'saving the planet for dummies', then these will run on bark and beer cans, a new type of saw for 'Doc' to magic up:
IMG_2234.JPG

It's a good thing most of us aren't going to see fully grown snowflakes trying to wield an axe!
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
A pessimistic exaggeration surely?

Certainly more than 10 or 12 unless you can specify the time of day your customers arrive...but with 100 cars a day and even with just overnight charging a franchisee like @L1A1 would need the space to stock nearer the hundred, but not hundreds...

Alan
I don't think so. 100 cars/day is surely nowhere near enough to sustain a typical-sized petrol station. That's each pump being used less than once per hour.
I'm sure any battery station would need hundreds of batteries.
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
Expensive yes, but how is it any less practical than the stock of fossil fuel you currently have to invest in and store, or the staff costs to run? It is just another business model.

I would expect the the battery changeover would be automated, but even if done on a pitstop basis, the positive of more employment is not to be sneezed at.

It would need to be a battery hire charge and of course that would not just be the cost of the electricity to recharge. I could imagine the changeover and hire cost would likely be at a fixed rate with just the difference in charged states being the variable...the hire charge would include for battery purchase and depreciation as has already been mentioned a few times.

My sister and brother-in-law developed a one man filling station into a business which now employs some 50 or so people by diversifying and re-investment in stock and equipment, so I have an albeit second hand clue as to the practical possibility.

Alan
The difference in the business model is that an electric station will necessarily be far more capital intensive because of the enormous cost of the batteries.
My limited understanding of petrol stations is that they do not pay for several years' of fuel up front, but by the tanker load. A tankerfull can't be over £50k, which will refuel around 500 cars. In batteries, that's £15 million. A very significant difference in business model.
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
I don't think so. 100 cars/day is surely nowhere near enough to sustain a typical-sized petrol station. That's each pump being used less than once per hour.
I'm sure any battery station would need hundreds of batteries.
I was just repeating the number of cars @L1A1 mentioned in the post you had responded to.

He will have to answer whether it is sustainable or not.

Alan
 

Odders

Well-Known Member
The difference in the business model is that an electric station will necessarily be far more capital intensive because of the enormous cost of the batteries.
My limited understanding of petrol stations is that they do not pay for several years' of fuel up front, but by the tanker load. A tankerfull can't be over £50k, which will refuel around 500 cars. In batteries, that's £15 million. A very significant difference in business model.
A full tanker is 3,000 gallons, so about £16k. Batteries start at just under £5k for a Nissan Leaf & average around £7k, so 500 would be £3.5 million.
I'd expect the battery manufacturers to lease, rather than sell the batteries, so the outlay would be less.
Of course there's the problem of ther being dozens (& no doubt soon to be hundreds) of different sizes & shapes in battery packs, with different voltages & different connectors.
Imagine how many batteries a busy Motorway services would need.
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
The difference in the business model is that an electric station will necessarily be far more capital intensive because of the enormous cost of the batteries.
My limited understanding of petrol stations is that they do not pay for several years' of fuel up front, but by the tanker load. A tankerfull can't be over £50k, which will refuel around 500 cars. In batteries, that's £15 million. A very significant difference in business model.
But but but.... I wrote “It is just another business model” Of course I agree it is not the same one.

The investment for an exchange and recharging franchisee would not necessarily have to fund the purchase of the batteries up front any more than my brother in law has to fund the oil wells and refinery that Murco use to supply his fuel, or bottle gas exchange franchisees buy the tanks and main depot filling machinery for the refills they handle

The charging exchange stations could actually just be an extension of the national grid even.

One thing for certain it will not be the doubters and can’t doers that will benefit or prosper from any change. But the ones that find the way forward.

Alan
 

L1A1

Well-Known Member
The petrol station I work at is subsidised, by a multi million pound business, the owner of which lives local and supports the local area heavily.
It runs at a loss and is kept afloat as a local amenity.

I don't believe that any current EVs have removable battery packs. I may be wrong but they all seem to be built in to the vehicle.
 

sauer

Well-Known Member
So

You swap your an EV

In real life terms what’s it going to cost to charge the thing every night?
How much is your electricity bill going to go up by?
 

xavierdoc

Well-Known Member
The petrol station I work at is subsidised, by a multi million pound business, the owner of which lives local and supports the local area heavily.
It runs at a loss and is kept afloat as a local amenity.

I don't believe that any current EVs have removable battery packs. I may be wrong but they all seem to be built in to the vehicle.
Yes they do (Nio) and automated battery exchange stations already exist and are in use.
 

xavierdoc

Well-Known Member
So

You swap your an EV

In real life terms what’s it going to cost to charge the thing every night?
How much is your electricity bill going to go up by?
This information is widely available and also in this thread.

On Octopus Agile Tariff you can be PAID to charge your car at times of surplus production ( no, you don’t have to get out of bed to plug in the charger...)

I don’t have an EV but I have found it interesting finding out about them by doing my own reading around the topic.

Most people posting the “yeah but what about” comments (negative) would be surprised how quickly this area is moving forward and how irrelevant their naysaying seems once you know about the exponential nature of development that is ongoing.

Yes, there are obstacles and there will need to be massive investment to get the infrastructure and power generation sorted but it is beginning to happen.

BEVs (Battery electric vehicles) may well end up being a parallel product alongside other non-fossil fuel options but I don’t see them having no role at all.
 

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