Energy reduction on MOD ranges

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#1
More Health and Safety crap from our esteemed government and political *****. It shows the complete lack of understanding as the politicians and thier suit clad lackies sip G&T in the House of Commons Bar but our Soldiers/Sailors and Airmen have to go in harms way without the facility for proper training and equipment, I dont think they really understand we are at WAR at this precise moment and people are dying . This also has an effect on all civilian shooters as well.

"Dear shooter you may have heard of the Army's intention to reduce
muzzle
energy on Military Ranges. Below is copied the latest information I
have
which I believe is due to appear on the NRA Website shortly. Regards
Harry

*_A View from the NRA_*

*Muzzle Energy and the MoD*

Along with clubs and individuals the NRA found itself on the back foot
when we were quietly told in the last week in October 2007 that the MoD

had agreed to change the muzzle energy rates for use of their ranges by

civilians from 7000 joules to 3800 joules. This news caused great
consternation as effectively it meant that Target Rifle, Match Rifle, F

Class and other forms of long range shooting were effectively banned on

all MoD ranges and Bisley.

Urgent discussions between the NRA and the MoD revealed that a decision

had not been reached but that this was a proposal. However, to induce a

bit more concern Altcar decided to be a head of the game and to
introduce the new proposed provisions with immediate effect. This
ensured that the knowledge of the proposed change was out in the
general
shooting community at the same time as the Association became aware and

panic ensued. At the same time as the NRA was trying to discover how
serious the issue was and the MoD’s intentions we were simultaneously
under assault from shooters concerned at losing their sport.

In early discussions we learnt that the reason for this proposed change

of policy was that when looking at the introduction of the .338 sniper
rifle the Army had discovered that if fire was not precise, rounds
could
escape from ranges. The muzzle energy of a .338 is 6000+ joules. The
MoD
then carried out a general examination to find a muzzle energy figure
that would guarantee rounds would not escape from ranges. On this basis

they proposed to introduce the 3800 joules limit that meant in terms of

Target Rifle 144 grain bullets were OK but competition ammunition of
155
grain was probably out.

Effectively if no accommodation could be reached most national and
international long range competitions could not be shot in the UK on
most ranges, including Bisley.

A series of urgent meetings took place between the Association and the
MoD, to either get the limits changed upwards or find other ways of
satisfying concerns. We were informed that the general limit of 3800
joules would remain however if we could propose a package of measures
designed to ensure all rounds would be contained by the range stop-butt

then the MoD would consider allowing civilians to shoot ammunition that

exceeded the that figure

To give an example of the scope of this decision to reduce the muzzle
energy limit one has only has to look at ‘historics’, the Black Bess
musket which when fired using black powder generates some of the
highest
muzzle energy figures, exceeding even the .338, accepting that the ball

at most travels a few hundred yards.

Even though this form of measurement is an inexact science the MoD
insist that this is the way in which they will judge what firearms and
ammunition can be fired on their ranges. Discussions around a different

method of measuring or arguments about whether the current 155 grain
bullet is over or under the bar will not be worth the effort, because
we
have tried.

We have to realise that to the military there is no ‘Defence
Imperative’
to allowing us to shoot on their ranges.

In our discussions however they are willing to consider letting
civilians shoot in excess of 3800 joules if we can put in place
procedures that will mean we hit the stop-butt.

*The NRA is determined to do everything it can to ensure all legitimate

shooters can continue to take part in and enjoy their sport.*

To this end the Association has negotiated a months grace to allow us
to
put together proposals designed to meet the needs of the MoD and allow
all of you who shoot full-bore to continue shooting.

The military have indicted that we need to offer ‘comfort’ relating to
the following, Safe Person, Safe Training, Safe Practice and Safe
Place,
in that we have the correct procedures in place to guarantee bullets
will be captured by the stop-butt.

/Safe Person/Training/

The military want to be assured that everyone who shoots on a MoD range

is competent and safe to fire the classes of firearm they are using.

Initially this will probably require each Club Secretary or Chairman to

sign off each individual as being competent and safe, identifying the
types of firearms they are able to fire. If agreed the NRA will supply
by email and the website an agreed form of certificate for clubs to
use.

Going forward it has already been indicated that training of
individuals
will be an issue. As previously informed in this magazine the
Association intends to send to all its clubs the new Probationary
Training pack, originally for them to chose to use or not. As with RCO
courses, it will probably become a requirement for individuals, new to
the sport, to have undertaken an approved course to shoot on MoD
ranges.
The NRA hopefully will be supplying appropriate course material for
clubs to meet this need.

In the future the NRA also believes that to make things easier for
clubs
and individuals that we may need to introduce a ‘Shooting Logbook’ so
that a person’s qualifications, experience and classes of firearms they

are able to fire are recorded in the same document for easy production.

/Safe Practice/

//It has been suggested that in future on a MoD range it will be
necessary for civilians to demonstrate that their fire is accurate from

the outset of a range day. It is proposed that if there is no ‘zero
range’ the shoot should start at 200 yards to ensure all rifles are
zeroed before moving back. This will be inconvenient and will require
that everyone turns up to shoot at an agreed time to get zeroed, with
the whole procedure being monitored closely by RCO’s.

The details of what this means in practice are still to be agreed. For
instance during the Annual Meeting at Bisley to get 1200 competitors to

zero each day would be extremely difficult.

In addition a strict understanding of range orders and compliance will
be essential for clubs to ensure their continued use of MoD ranges.

/Safe Place/

MoD Ranges as we are all aware are strictly inspected, maintained and
controlled environments. Incidentally the ranges at Bisley are leased
from the Army. As such they are inspected and certificated by them
regularly and are thus controlled by the same conditions as those
ranges
run by the MoD. Effectively, the muzzle energy restrictions will affect

Bisley in the same way as any other MoD range. Fortunately we do have
zeroing facilities that other ranges may not have.

The NRA accepts that what is proposed is possibly onerous and will be
seen by many as a further erosion of shooting rights. The Association
however will be attempting to minimise the effects of these changes and

trying to keep everyone shooting.

Any input from clubs and individuals to help achieve this aim is
welcomed. Please contact the NRA by e-mail as we will be fully engaged
on this project and are unlikely to be able to answer all your
telephone
calls during this period. Your input will, however, be fully taken into

account. We hope that by working together and using the considerable
expertise within our wider membership we can achieve a successful
outcome for us all. Updates will be posted regularly on the NRA website

as matters develop."

Mark

Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible.
 

steyr.308

Well-Known Member
#2
H,

I am a very active and keen stalker and also a serving member of the armed forces. You state ''our Soldiers/Sailors and Airmen have to go in harms way without the facility for proper training and equipment'' How very wrong you are.

Also you state ''Dear shooter you may have heard of the Army's intention to reduce muzzle energy on Military Ranges. It is not the army that is making this decision but as stated by the NRA on there web site, the MOD !

Regards
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#3
O dear me! A bit of 'Blue on blue' me thinks! Most people have the courtesy to introduce themselves to the other members before they start knocking lumps out of them. Right or wrong civilised discussion is the aim of this site. Many have thought differently, but they are now all banned. Lets all play nicely now gentlemen. Please.
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#4
Steyr.308

Just for your info I'm a ex serving senior officer so IMHO I dont think I'm that wrong.

I left in 97 as I was not impressed by the results of drawdown. One of my duties was as Range Officer so I do have some experience of these matters.
The MOD need to improve the ranges and the amount of time all service men spend on them. Not restrict their specification by reducing the ME of the rifle. How dum is that.

Mark
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#5
Hi MarkH,
You left the same year as me! I spent most of my Rememberance Day this year with serving members of the Grenadier Guards, great blokes. They don't think that they are getting the right equipment, training or medical care and counselling either. Funny enough the Green Jackets, Royal Fusiliers and the Royal Navy/Royal Marines were of the same opinion.
I left HMS Cambridge (then Royal Naval School of Gunnery) for active service in Northern Ireland after spending three hours on the range. I got twenty rounds 5.56 and twelve rounds 9mm to put down the range. Great training that was. To make up for lack of range time we did alot of battle runs. What does that tell you.
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#6
Hi Beowulf

I was a bit luckier on the ammo front as we had a small section and RHIP so I could draw 1000 rsd for 5 people on a fully baffled 300m range. Needless to say you would not be suprised at how few bullets hit the targets on full auto. :evil: :evil:

I have many friends serving at the moment in Afganistan who would agree with your mates ion the Guards.

My project for next year is to gain sponsorship for the 'Help for Heros' charity by running a few marathons. Headley Court should have proper rehab facilities provided by HMG to treat those Service personel injured but like most things its down to charities to fill the gaps. Thats not right.
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#7
Hi Mark,
Last Rememberance Day I upset quite a few friends by suggesting that they may require some form of counselling for various problems they had in their lives. This year the same people have asked me to help them seek help and to form some sort of network to help each other out with the day to day problems. many serving or exservice men don't trust the larger organisations such as British Legion, RNA etc. They do not think they will understand. They do however trust 'old oppos' who have been there and done it.
I hope to use my conservation skills to get some of these chaps to get out into the out doors and work as a team again for a mutual bennefit and talk about their problems. I feel this may work. It worked for me! :D
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#8
Just recieved this email

----- Original Message -----
*From:* NRA Membership Secretary <mailto:memsec@nra.org.uk>
*To:* NRA Membership Secretary <mailto:memsec@nra.org.uk>
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:31 PM
*Subject:* Muzzle Energy Update 28th November 2007 - Good News

Following a meeting with the MoD today the NRA is pleased to announce
that there has been an agreement to raise the Muzzle Energy limit to
4500J with immediate effect.
This will mean that all shooters using Target Rifles, Match Rifles and
most F Class Rifles will be able to shoot as normal.
Anyone using ammunition that exceeds the 4500J limit will be unable to
shoot on an MoD range until new conditions have been formally agreed
between the military and the NRA in mid-January 2008.
Going forward, the MoD has set a number of new conditions around the
use
of their ranges. These demand that the Association work in close
partnership with other bodies and our clubs to ensure we meet the
requirements of the military, to guarantee we can keep you all using
ranges as normal.
As soon as we have had an opportunity to fully consider the proposal
from the MoD, we will inform you of its content and the measures we
will
need to introduce to meet the MoD’s expectations.
This represents a major achievement for the NRA. The previously
proposed
muzzle energy limit of 3800J represented a significant threat to our
sport which has been overcome by fast and effective cooperation between

the NRA and the MoD.
Glynn Alger
Secretary General
 

Top