FAC application conditions

MJ75

Well-Known Member
#1
Well my FAC application went in the post about 4 weeks ago. My firearms enquiry officer called me a couple of days ago to arrange a home visit. He seemed friendly enough, and then pointed out that South Yorkshire police will be looking to place a restriction on my ticket sasying I have to go out accompanied until I have passed my DSC level 1 course!

I explained that I have completed an introduction to stalking course and that I can handle a firearm safely. I also asked him to go through ALL of the paperwork I had sent and to take a look at a certificate from the company who perform the training course I attended. And to see the section where it states I have demonstrated competent rifle use.

By the time he arrives at my home I'll have a letter from my instructor stating that he believes I can stalk unaccompanied safely. But I wondered if anyone else had come across such problems?

Regards
MJ
 

Duncs

Well-Known Member
#2
Hi, when i got first ticket, had a condition that i had to be with someone at all times until they wrote to say I was "safe." They did as soon as I asked, as I had been out with them loads using one of their rifles. BUT, when I asked for an extra, larger calibre, the chap stated to hum and ha, then I produce my level one cert, said that they thought a.243 was the minimum, and for larger animals I would prefere a larger rifle. "In that case no problem" was his reply. A lot of people will say, don't bow down to theirs demands....easy to say, but they have what they want! Good luck, go along with it and get the letter written quickly. Happy stalking!
 

Offroad Gary

Account Suspended
#3
i have supervision condition, which i am just about to try and get signed off from with letters etc..

the supervision condition ties the rifle to the supervisor, so you cant even use it with others (even accredited witmnesses) but you can use the estate rifle.

my advice is speak to BASC firearms if you are a member, they will probably advise you not to accept supervision and challenge it on your behalf.

if you can get some permission, it will probably be in you favour too.
 

wadashot

Account Suspended
#4
Hello.

I live under the South Yorkshire firearms unit and have got to say that i believe that they are really quite fair to be honest and do think that they are a hell of a lot better than some other firearms units that i know of.

I have a fully open ticket with a .22 .243 .270 cal on, so yes, i know it is easy for me to say that i find them good but to be fair a relative newcomer to full bore rifles can`t be expected to have no restrictions on his license from day one, but i will say that South Yorkshire firearms unit do try to be fair.

One of the firearms officers who came to check my details last time i renewed was a very young chap, can`t remember his name, and at first thought it was one of my daughters friends from school, (only kidding) but he was very approachable and reasonable.

I am lead to believe that you now have to own a firearms license for 5 years before it is considered for opening up.

Good luck.

wadashot
 

stone

Well-Known Member
#5
hi mj
west mids would not renew mine untill i did my dsc1 that was 1996, since i hav got the certificate they gave me any calibre i asked for with out a problem, my advice is to go along with your firearms officers conditions and get them on side that should help any future renewals and variations run alot smoother , it has for me good luck
 
K

Kent

Guest
#6
i think home office regulations says three years for an open ticket minimum, but any interested will have to check up themselves. Seriously read these if you have any problems with any certificate.
I was asked to accompany a new stalker who had a term "to be accompanied by an experianced stalker" prior to him having level 1. I checked up on exactly what the force in question wanted and was told anyone with a FAC for deer and the novice had to be within my earshot. Personally i would have to think twice before giving out any letter stating competancy- is this not a defferal of responsibility from the issuing authority, perhaps onto yours truely?
 

MJ75

Well-Known Member
#7
Thanks for the advise guys. I had my home visit today, and after asking my firearms enquiry officer to have discussions with the stalker I trained with, South Yorkshire police force are now, not looking to put the restriction on my FAC. Which is pleaseing. :)
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#8
I'm not sure how legal these restrictions are. The Home Office guidelines to Police Chief Constables do not as far as I know contain recommendations for a condition requiring new stalkers to be supervised.

Also, it is not currently a condition for stalkers to have DSC 1 although this might be different down the line. There is certainly a train of thought which says cooperate and do what the police want just to get your FAC but another arguement says don't agree to anything which they have no legal power to impose.

I'm glad you got sorted but for others it may be worth a phone call to BASC to check with their Firearms Adviser who will put you straight on how to approach this and they also give hands on support in some cases where police forces step out of line.
 

MJ75

Well-Known Member
#9
paul k said:
I'm not sure how legal these restrictions are. The Home Office guidelines to Police Chief Constables do not as far as I know contain recommendations for a condition requiring new stalkers to be supervised.

Also, it is not currently a condition for stalkers to have DSC 1 although this might be different down the line. There is certainly a train of thought which says cooperate and do what the police want just to get your FAC but another arguement says don't agree to anything which they have no legal power to impose.

I'm glad you got sorted but for others it may be worth a phone call to BASC to check with their Firearms Adviser who will put you straight on how to approach this and they also give hands on support in some cases where police forces step out of line.
Thanks for the reply Paul. I have read the Home Office guidelines and can also not find any mention of newcomers to stalking having to be accompanied. What I will add is that I told the officer I had spent some time reading the home office guidelines to police forces. His reply was that there are the home office guidelines and South Yorkshire police guidelines. This statement was made after he had spent 5 minutes telling me how all forces are soon to be singing from the same hymn sheet, rather than granting certificates by following there own forces procedures.

I deliberately chose not to fuel an argument however contradictory his statements. And simply said nothing. :???:

I also got the impression that they value the DSC qualifications very highly. And I don't blame them really. It's an easy way for them satisfy themselves that the people they grant certificates to are "qualified" to stalk. In the absence of anything else, I can see why the police would want it to become mandatory for all stalkers. Though I also appreciate there will be many very good, responsible and safe stalkers out there who do not have the qualification. And a few "less skilled and safe" with it!

All the best
MJ
 

techman

Well-Known Member
#10
FAC Renewal

MJ and all,
I wonder what hymn sheet this would be. It would be nice if BASC and Countryside Alliance or even the Home Office reminded the police that they are 'Not the law' but upholders of it.
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#11
MJ75 said:
I also got the impression that they value the DSC qualifications very highly. And I don't blame them really. It's an easy way for them satisfy themselves that the people they grant certificates to are "qualified" to stalk. In the absence of anything else, I can see why the police would want it to become mandatory for all stalkers. Though I also appreciate there will be many very good, responsible and safe stalkers out there who do not have the qualification. And a few "less skilled and safe" with it!

All the best
MJ
I'm in two minds on this. I can absolutely see why the authorities would find benefit in a novice stalker having some sort of qualification although we can argue about whether having a piece of paper actually makes you a safer or better stalker.

Having been a stalker for over 20 years I would object most strongly to having to get DSC 1 in order to renew my FAC. My objections being mostly around the fact that if I was experienced and safe enough for the past several renewals of my FAC and for several professional stalkers to be happy with me stalking unaccompanied on their ground, then I'm experienced enough now.

It has never yet been suggested that I would need DSC 1 to renew I'm just getting my objection in first. I would begrudge spending good money and wasting stalking time getting a piece of paper that I don't think I need.
 

geoshot

Well-Known Member
#12
I think it all depends on who you talk to in the firearms department, after moving to England I re-applied for an FAC and was told that I would have to agree to conditions despite none of my previous certificates carrying any.
When I got fed up and after talking to a couple of top sorts at the BDS (excellent organisation by the way) and following their advice I asked to talk to the manager of the local office.
A brief and happy chat with him followed during which my experience and training were recognised and an open FAC granted.
The lesson?
Don't take the first decision lying down and if possible ask to speak to the organ grinder not the monkey, but don't say that!
As an ex cop I know that approach is the road to nowhere, be polite but firm, you probably know as much about legislation as the FEO you are dealing with. It's not seen as a prime posting and as such doesn't exactly attract high fliers, if you get my drift. The association of chief police officers (ACPO) want compulsory training, and restrictions are a means to that end. Fight them if you can, but remember to stay polite, any abusive behaviour or language from you and you can forget your application. If you have already been granted an FAC then any attempt to add restrictions at a later renewal amounts to a constructive refusal which you can easily fight.
 
S

ssgpiv

Guest
#13
I have only just read this thread so I am amazed to read of some of these restrictions. I am in Leicestershire and I find them very reasonable. Two weeks to turn a variation around even less on occaision.
 

geoshot

Well-Known Member
#14
Lucky you ssgpiv,
Sadly elsewhere delays are the norm, for me it was 4 months on initial application even though I'm experienced and trained, and I have heard of longer in the met area, but it only took a few days to sort it out via the head man when I tracked him down.
Something for me to remember next time.
Too many police forces in the uk but no standardisation of procedures, along with too many staff who frankly don't know their job or aren't interested in it, plus some chief constables who are antis at heart and it's amazing that any of us get an FAC at all.
 

308boy

Well-Known Member
#15
Bollocks

The police MUST apply the law as it is

NOT how they want it to be.

Get onto BASC or the DSC or whatever organisation you are a memeber of and get this bollocks sorted out NOW.

The laws covering Firearms are clear . Get a copy. Ther is nothing about restrictions or DMQ level 1.

It is your rights the are messing with because you are letting them.

308 :evil:
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#16
Yeah they tried to tell my wife that she needed to have a DSC1 course to get her FAC.
I informed plod that she would be using my rifles on my land permisson and seeing that she sits reading this website with me most days why should she need to do a soddin DSC1?
She got the licence, in fact she can have her own rifles as well as mine. So she put in for the rifles I haven't got on my ticket and we can both use all of them! Still got to get them to sort out my open ticket though, its only been six months! :eek:
I don't like slagging off the law, but sometimes they are very frustrating! :???:
 
S

ssgpiv

Guest
#17
What do they need to give you an open ticket beowolf. In leicestershire I understand you just need to prove you have a named peice of land.
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#18
I was due an open ticket last time I renewed as I have land, they agreed but then sent me out a partitioned ticket. Some of the rifles open some closed as they said that I was over gunned for 308 on my 50 acres.

I got on to the FAO of the county that the land was on and he said 'No its fine, they should give you a full open'! So off I went and sure enough they said okay. Next thing I know it comes back fully closed ticket! So I phoned and yes sure enough they cocked up! I have to send it back in again but at £15 for recorded delivery its getting expensive!
 
S

ssgpiv

Guest
#19
Well at least it sounds like your at the end of the process. It makes me realise how lucky I have been, as i have an open ticket for rimfire and centrefire and its never been an issue. There really shouldnt be this level of difference between forces should there.
 

Beowulf

Well-Known Member
#20
You really can't except 'No' for an answer as they treat each case as they see fit! So if the FAO got a jump at the weekend or its friday afternoon the law is different from the day his goldfish died or the donut shop was closed! :lol:

It beggars belief! :cry:

Oh and of course there's the 'Computer says no' excuse! The system doesn't work! Fine then write my open ticket on the back of a fag packet I'm in a hurry! :eek:
 

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