FAC conditions questions!

[MJ75]

Finally got my FAC. The conditions state :-

“The .243 calibre rifle, Sound Moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer and zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:
A) the lawful shooting of deer;
B) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
C) the humane killing of animals;
D) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals of humans.”


When I applied for my certificate I asked stated the rifle was for the use of “ Deer stalking, vermin and fox control, zeroing and practice”

Can anyone answer these questions :-

Does my FAC allow me to shoot vermin and fox?
Are vermin and fox covered by statement B?
And am I able to “practice” on an approved range?

Thanks in advance.
Jared

 

[Beowulf]

Hi Jared,
Its seems to me that you can use approved ranges, in fact they will usually make sure you do! What seems to be missing is:- 'And for shooting foxes whilst out deer stalking'. I think thats what they write. I have been told by one FAO that fox are not vermin! So be careful. Phone them and question what they have put on your ticket. It really is a game, you need to be polite but put your point across clearly.
If the FOA got his leg over last night or the donut shop is having a sale he might just let you have what you want. IMHO its that random!

 

[sikamalc]

Jared you have been issued with a closed ticket, and as it does not state Fox I would ask them to specify it on your ticket.

Trouble is every constabulary makes its own bloody rules up

 

[Offroad Gary]

i was in the same situation, but its all resolved now.

you are only allowed to shoot deer and targets with that rifle on any land that is approved for that calibre, if you are with someone with an open certificate for a calibre larger than yours, BASC will advise that it is safe to use it even if no land check has been made by plod.

you need to have the words "and fox" added.

you do not want to have the words "and fox while deer stalking", as you cant shoot deer at night, therefore that would prevent you from going out foxing at night.

of course, there's nothing wrong with going out shooting targets at night, and if while out target shooting you were to see an injured/unhealthy fox, it would be your duty to dispatch it!
its amazing how mant unhealthy foxes are out there!!!

im waiting for a .308 variation to come through, and that should have the words "shoot deer and fox while deer stalking" on it. i will not be allowed to take that rifle out at night to shoot foxes.

its all to do with what the home office guidance says each calibre is suitable for and why they will grant each calibre. they do not class foxes as vermin. some people who have had certificates for longer, have things such as "for pest control and sporting purposes" but those conditions are not able to be granted for new certificate holders due to the software that generates the certificates (i asked for that one myself).

getting the certificate that you want is almost as much sport as the sport itself!

 

[MJ75]

Gents

Thanks for the advice. I've talked to the local FAC officers and am now clear on the situation. I have to send the license back with a letter stating that I want fox adding to it. As it's a .243 I am not allowed "vermin" as it's classed as too powerful. Again this all comes down to the Home Office guidelines you mentioned.

So, what happens if you get caught shooting a bunny with a .243 or larger calibre rifle? Not that I plan too I hasten to add!!!

MJ

 

[Offroad Gary]

the bunny would be too dead!

 

[sikamalc]

Your ticket allows you to only hunt/shoot the species named on the licence and on the ground that has been certificated for that calibre of weapon. The onus is on the chief constable if you hurt anyone as he is satisfied that the area is suitable for the calibre you are using

I take a great many people stalking and particularly overseas clients. They can use all my rifles providing I am with them at all times and I am the leaseholder/owner/or have written permission to stalk, without a licence. I am a little unsure about someone taking their rifle on a closed licence to another place to shoot, as you are not taking the weapon to and from the regular place you stalk, even if you are with a full licence holder on the ground, you may find you will need to inform the police before doing so.

I assume this is your first licence, and therefore you will have to wait 5 years as a rule before they will consider giving you a full open ticket.

It is all nonsense really but I am afraid thats how it works, although each chief constable and FO can have some cranky ideas how to apply it.

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[wadashot]

If your FAC dosen`t state fox with a .243 then you can`t shoot fox, it`s as simple as that. A pal of mine once got a telling of from the feds in Hertfordshire when he shot a fox while out stalking when it wasn`t stated on his FAC, there is a lot more to the story as to how they found out, but it`s a long one. The upshot of it all was that they just made him aware of the fact he couldn`t shoot fox with his .243 without it being on his FAC, and took no further action.

wadashot

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[MJ75]

The plot thickens.......

Since calling South Yorkshires firearms licensing department I have had the chief officer of police call me back. She handled the final stages of my application after the original FEO retired as they are still waiting for his replacement to start.

Anyway, the upshot is, I can have fox added to the .243 no problem. And I can have a smaller calibre .22 rimfire, or .17HMR or .22 for vermin control added to my FAC free of charge.

Apparently I cannot shoot vermin (Foxes are not classed as vermin for fire arms purposes under home office advice) with my .243. As I would be "overgunned". Even though, it would do the job quite humanely!

I have to add, I'm quite impressed with the sevice I've had from South Yorkshire so far. After reading some of the horror stories other forum members have experienced I'm quite relieved and impressed!

Sikamalc, you're quite right it's my first FAC. And I had it explained to me that there was no chance that I would get an open FAC on my first application. I can shoot anywhere I have legal authority to do so, so long as the land has been certified by the local chief oficer of police for that calibre of rifle. The onus is on me to ensure it has been. In short. the advantage an open FAC gives you is that you can decide if the land you are shooting on is suitable for the calibre of weapon you are using. At least that is what I was told by the FEO who visited me.

Regards
Jared

 

[wadashot]

Pete E,
you are absolutely right, the only point i was making in short was I wouldn`t want MJ75 to get into any unneccessary trouble. At the end of the day if you are out stalking and happened to shoot a fox even if it weren`t on your ticket, who would know?.

I live in the South Yorkshire firearms constabulary and have to agree with MJ75 that they are very efficient with the chief firearms officer being, wait for it, a WOMAN, and the person who signs the licenses being, wait for it,
another WOMAN, but they really are very nice i have to say.

wadashot

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[sikamalc]

Well if that is the case I stand corrected. But I was always led to believe that the land you have permission on is the only land you can stalk with a closed ticket.

I am aware that as a full licence holder with a handgun as well that I can take my weapons where ever I want to go as long as it is in connection with my business and trade. If you where approached tonight to go and sort out some marauding deer how would you know the land had been certificated for a 243? the owner may have no idea and probably may not even care ? I may be wrong but I think as a new FA holder you will need to get permission for the police and clearance for that land on your ticket.

 

[MJ75]

Well if that is the case I stand corrected. But I was always led to believe that the land you have permission on is the only land you can stalk with a closed ticket.

I am aware that as a full licence holder with a handgun as well that I can take my weapons where ever I want to go as long as it is in connection with my business and trade. If you where approached tonight to go and sort out some marauding deer how would you know the land had been certificated for a 243? the owner may have no idea and probably may not even care ? I may be wrong but I think as a new FA holder you will need to get permission for the police and clearance for that land on your ticket.

Hi Malcolm

When the original FEO visited he advised that I would have to write to the licensing department and advise them of every piece of ground I wanted to shoot on so that they could ensure it had been certified for that particular calibre. Up until last night, I was of exactly the same belief as yourself.

However a friend had suggested otherwise, but in all honesty I was taking the side of the FEO. When I posed the question to South Yorkshire's head honcho, I was told that I don't have to seek permission from them even though it's a closed ticket. However, it is my responsibility to ensure the ground is approved for the particular calibre I wish to use by the local force. And I was also advised that they could probably help with any checks I wished to make.

Your point about going out this evening without being able to check is a VERY valid one. In reality, I wouldn't be able to because I wouldn't be able to ensure the ground had been cleared for a .243 in time. Which is a shame. But theres bugger all I can do about it! :cry: Maybe in 5 years time.....

MJ

 

[stone]

hi MJ75
if i am correct in what i say then you can apply for an open ticket in 3 years and the easiest way to do that is apply for a variation on your licence and ask for an open ticket at the same time, the only reason they make you wait 5 years is because your ticket lasts 5 years now when it use to be only 3 years but you can hav an open ticket before that if you can prove you actually need it and then are prepaired to fight your case.
if i am wrong we will soon know (please be gental on me)
as you also said yes you could end up in hot water if you are stalking on ground that has not been passed for the calibre of rifle you are using and is always a good idea to check with the stalker/agent what size calibre the ground has been passed upto ,as a lot of leases these days are given or bought buy a stalker/agent who has an open ticket and does not need to have this ground passed
a mine field "yes" but so easy to work around if common sense prevails
so get out there and enjoy

stone

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[stone]

hi Pete E
that is a good point for MJ75 to raise is about their casualty call out list as i hav been on to west midlands for years now but they keep saying it is done in house though a friend of mine has on several occasions been asked out to dispatch deer, horses and the odd cow that were running up the M6 in the past
who knows one day they may come to you MJ75 but don't expect to get paid

 

[wadashot]

I always think it`s a good idea to keep on the right side of the firearms unit, that dosen`t mean you have accept everything that they try to impose, but I do think there is a cause for riding out your time with the closed ticket, and then just try some of the suggestions that have been put on here.

pete E

You suggest to MJ75 asking the feds what they do in the event of road casualties, I know that there won`t be much of a call for that as where we live there is buggerall in the way of deer, he will know what i am saying. :cry:

wadashot

 

[325wsm]

Long ago I asked the BASC to assist with a similar query and was told the following (my own words not theirs)

The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:
A) the lawful shooting of deer;
B) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
C) the humane killing of animals;
D) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals of humans.”

These conditions ONLY relate to the use of expanding ammunition and are themselves conditioned by the use allowed for the rifles listed. They are NOT conditions in their own right.

Also remember conditions only confine and do not allow nor is there a right of appeal against their imposition.