FAC land size requirements could potentially prohibit my application??

#1
Hi Guys

I'm new to the forum this is my first post , I would really appreciate your advice and opinion regarding my FAC application , and the potential of being refused to own a rifle suitable for Deer in the UK.

My friends who are very experienced in both stalking and hunting generally have taken me out shooting over the last decade , I would have applied long ago for my cert but personal access to land with specific land owners written permission has prevented me applying , however a friend recently bought some wooded land a few months ago , he granted me permission to keep the abundant Rabbit and Fox population under control along with other vermin , but more significantly his land holds at least two species of Deer which he says I can also hunt. Problem is his lands only five acres , will this be a problem due to the required caliber of rifle legally required and the smallish area??? I anticipated using 308 for the Deer , the land is fairly heavily wooded and undulating so has a nice natural back stop in most directions I am also thinking of shooting from a tree stand or elevated platform for safety too. Could this small area verses caliber be a none starter for my application?? I have plenty of shooting opportunities as a guest elsewhere too as well as this area but as far as i'm aware I need specific permission to shoot on specific land prior to my application for it to be taken seriously .

My friends say this is on the limit of whats permitted but still legit for application , any other advice and opinions greatly appreciated.
Regards Gaz
 
#2
Gaz

Access to land is not a prerequisite for a FAC, so go right ahead and apply. The fact that you do have access to land may work in your favour, but so will having access to other invitations to shoot.
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
#3
Welcome to the forum. I'm no expert by any means, but if the land's got suitable opportunities for safe shots (i.e. decent backstops, no likelihood of errant walkers, etc) then it shouldn't necessarily be excluded, I wouldn't think. And as you mention, you can always put in high seats if backstops are a concern? I had both .270 and 22-250 granted on an open ticket on 160 acres with an A-road bordering one side, and a couple of B-roads acting as boundaries. It has plenty of scope for safe & sensible shooting :thumb:

Of course you could always book paid stalking and use that as the justification for a calibre application too?

Plenty of guys here that can offer a lot more advice though
 

Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
#5
These days most licensing authorities require signed permission for at least one named primary piece of land in order to grant FAC and expanding ammunitions conditions, many no longer accept proof of paid for stalks or guest accompaniments as a good enough reason for granting
The other hurdle is the lands suitability for the calibre you intend to use, you will be on closed conditions if a FAC is granted, your FEO will inspect the land and reccommend what "HE" thinks are safe calibres to use on the land not what you would like to use.
You say you are in the north-east, not with Durham i hope???

Ian.
 
#6
It shouldn't be a factor the size of land or caliber, but will no doubt raise some questions buy your FEO. You have good reason so that should be the end of it. But if you have a high seat fitted or a portable one this would provide a safe back stop and something you could mention you will do when the come to interview you.

Having access to other shooting and proof/evidence will also back up your application. This would play a heavily I should think
If you have DSC1 even though not required will also provide some extra weight.
Reference of people you shoot with also may aid you if required.

A smaller caliber maybe easier to get granted a .22rf for rabbit and .240 for fox etc.

Id personally apply for .308 and you maybe have to be prepared to come to some sort of compromise.

You will normally be on a closed cert as well, but this is not always the case. some do get issued an open cert on first application. But I don't know of many who have.
 
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FGYT

Well-Known Member
#7
These days most licensing authorities require signed permission for at least one named primary piece of land in order to grant FAC and expanding ammunitions conditions, many no longer accept proof of paid for stalks or guest accompaniments as a good enough reason for granting
The other hurdle is the lands suitability for the calibre you intend to use, you will be on closed conditions if a FAC is granted, your FEO will inspect the land and reccommend what "HE" thinks are safe calibres to use on the land not what you would like to use.
You say you are in the north-east, not with Durham i hope???

Ian.

they would have a hard time justifying not letting you as Paid and Guest invites are specified as good reason examples of reasons to grant on the Form 201A that helps you fill in the application (tho you will need to be able to show they are Police cleared land as you wont get an open ticket)

section 9

http://www.dorset.police.uk/pdf/Firearms_App_Notes_Form201A_14a.pdf
 
#8
Also in order to dead end any "you don't have enough experience for a centrefire calibre yet' I would ask your friends who you have been stalking with for the last decade to write you a letter or two outlining your experience and that you're competent and safe with a firearm to show to the feo. This may prevent them from trying to impose a mentoring condition or DSC1 if you can provide evidence of previous experience and safety.
 

Sle

Well-Known Member
#9
I have a piece of land 10 acres that was cleared to .223 with no probs, as long as the land has safe shots and is not in a area that it could cause danger you should be ok. It all depends on FEO personal opinion though in reality.
but go for it.
 

dan71

Well-Known Member
#10
As you have some land you could also book a few outings for deer. The more reasons to have a rifle the better chance you will have. As you stated about high seats they will like that as its safer shooting.
 

TA6319

Well-Known Member
#11
I have access to 10 acres and everybody told me I would not I would not get it cleared. I had it cleared for a 308, but it is conditioned for a high seat. Which is not a problem as I have a doe box set up, but I also had done my DSC1. As has been stated before show that you know how to make the ground safe, and letters from people stating you are safe will help. Make it hard for the FEO to refuse
 

FGYT

Well-Known Member
#12
Also in order to dead end any "you don't have enough experience for a centrefire calibre yet' I would ask your friends who you have been stalking with for the last decade to write you a letter or two outlining your experience and that you're competent and safe with a firearm to show to the feo. This may prevent them from trying to impose a mentoring condition or DSC1 if you can provide evidence of previous experience and safety.

they are not allowed to use the Mentor condition any more so are much harder on previous exp (even tho that's not an actual legal requirement just desirable) dsc1 IS not considered relevant exp as its only a Class based test with a few shots on a range . Exp has to be in the field with a Fire arm on live quarry (rimfire should do according to HO guidance)
 

Chasey

Well-Known Member
#13
I'd have thaught it better to apply for a 243 on such a small parcle of land. If your shooting fallow, roe & munties a 243 is plenty and for reasions that baffle, me there seems to be a resistance against issueing a 308 as a first rifel (Surley a 243 with expanding amo can kill just as easily?)

ATB

Mark
 
#14
they are not allowed to use the Mentor condition any more so are much harder on previous exp (even tho that's not an actual legal requirement just desirable) dsc1 IS not considered relevant exp as its only a Class based test with a few shots on a range . Exp has to be in the field with a Fire arm on live quarry (rimfire should do according to HO guidance)
I agree with you but rather than let them try and impose conditions or restrictions and then have to fight them off on your first application and possibly get someone like BASC involved I just think it is better to have as much evidence and information on your side before you apply to stop any issues before they become an issue.

As the OP said he has been shooting with friends for 10 years but never had his own ticket he should have all the evidence he needs to prove safety and competence and he has ground with deer on it and permission so SHOULD all just be a simple application. Better to have that evidence in your hand though at the time of his first meeting rather than having to hold up the application sourcing it later.
 

FGYT

Well-Known Member
#15
I agree with you but rather than let them try and impose conditions or restrictions and then have to fight them off on your first application and possibly get someone like BASC involved I just think it is better to have as much evidence and information on your side before you apply to stop any issues before they become an issue.

As the OP said he has been shooting with friends for 10 years but never had his own ticket he should have all the evidence he needs to prove safety and competence and he has ground with deer on it and permission so SHOULD all just be a simple application. Better to have that evidence in your hand though at the time of his first meeting rather than having to hold up the application sourcing it later.

yes i agree definalty worth putting down all Reasons to grant and all exp especially backed up with letters from FAC holders who you have been out with

A letter from the guy I went out stalking as previous exp with has hopefully smoothed over the happy to grant a deer cal rifle on first application on top of the Reason I have (land) etc

and my target based shooting/instructing (without FAC) over 25 yrs has made them happy im safe.

as was the Walk on My main permission (next door ) with the FEO to clear it only 22 acres and footpaths thu the middle with a chat about safe/unsafe legal/illegal shots etc
 
#16
Home office guidelines suggest named land is for target shooting clubs and evidence of booked stalks is enough to satisfy the good reason clause.

Makes no matter what area of land you shoot as all land is generically unsafe so as already stated build yourself a high seat which is located in the safest possible location with backstop, clear unobstructed views and get a O.S map which clearly shows the ground and any public rights of way in the area.

Try and get your shooting mates who you have been out shooting with to be your referees as they can add weight to your application having personal knowledge of your shooting ability and knowledge of safe shooting etc. It also wouldn't hurt to get a paid stalk or two and have these as confirmed by your stalker.

As for calibres the guidelines say, don't try and limit a calibre for overkill reasons. The minimum calibre in England and Wales is .220 for CWD and Munty and .240 for all other deer so that is the least calibre you would use. If you want an all round calibre for all the deer species then the .308 you are seeking would be an ideal calibre and you would only need one rifle for deer. They may try and talk you out of it for safety reasons etc but stick to your calibre especially if you have Red deer on your ground or their is a reasonable chance that Red deer may pass through as they are in the area.
 

Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
#17
they would have a hard time justifying not letting you as Paid and Guest invites are specified as good reason examples of reasons to grant on the Form 201A that helps you fill in the application (tho you will need to be able to show they are Police cleared land as you wont get an open ticket)

section 9

http://www.dorset.police.uk/pdf/Firearms_App_Notes_Form201A_14a.pdf
I am aware of the HO guidelines and remember they are only guidelines not law and can be interpreted in any way by the licensing office, hence the last phrase of Section 9. "But these are not exhaustive"
In the case of Northants, proof of one piece of land is the minimum requirement.

Ian.
 

FGYT

Well-Known Member
#18
I am aware of the HO guidelines and remember they are only guidelines not law and can be interpreted in any way by the licensing office, hence the last phrase of Section 9. "But these are not exhaustive"
In the case of Northants, proof of one piece of land is the minimum requirement.

Ian.

however they are mandated to follow HO guidelines or supply in writing to CC Andy Marsh and the Fire arms and explosive Licencing working group (FELWG) reasons that they are not following HO guidance
as issued by the College of Policing as an APP


Firearms licensing

Firearms licensing departments must provide a service which is consistent nationally. Forces should, therefore:
  • align their licensing activities with this APP and the Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law 2014
  • work together through the regional leads and stakeholder engagement to meet firearms licensing priorities
  • implement policy issued by the national policing lead.
This APP provides direction which supports effective and consistent firearms licensing.
Forces that choose not to align their activities with the Home Office Guide are required to notify the national policing lead of the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group (FELWG) and provide a rationale for their decision.


this seems to be being followed as pretty much all forces are now issuing AOLQ and mandated by this body and not using Mentor Conditions even tho they really would like to (dorset are not happy with being told not to use Mentor any more but are complying




plus that form isnt HO guidelines its the Fire arms Application form 201 instruction on filling out 201 and last phrase Section 9. "But these are not exhaustive" means that theses are known good reasons however others we haven't put down can also be considered not that you can ignore the reasons given

My brother inlaw was told he needed 2 pieces of land to get grant for a 22 rimfire he wanted to control Rabbits on his own land in Cornwall
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
#19
I have shot foxes with a .222 on a rugby pitch!

is it bigger with more backstops than that!?

no requirement for size as far as I am aware
safety comes from the shooter not the FEO, if he wants to go and see the land I would make sure you go with him and explain exactly what you can achieve safely
 
#20
I have shot foxes with a .222 on a rugby pitch!

is it bigger with more backstops than that!?

no requirement for size as far as I am aware
safety comes from the shooter not the FEO, if he wants to go and see the land I would make sure you go with him and explain exactly what you can achieve safely
Could become an interesting thread on its own. A friend of mine shot a problem fox on centre court a few days before the Eastbourne tennis tournament with a .223 from the stands!
 

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