FAC Wording Interpretation

sandersj89

Well-Known Member
#1
Well the good news is I got my FAC back from a 1:1 variation, removing a .22LR and adding a slot for .243. As such I now have a FAC for .17HMR and .243.

Posted 1:1 forms on the 9th of January, so not a bad turn around by Sussex.

I originally applied for the variation for the .243 so I could get a centre fire suitable for both foxing and deer. Sussex police, my licensing authority, did not have a problem for a .243 for foxing but ask me to attend a DSC1 for the deer option.

(Something I was not bothered about as I always intended doing a DSC at some point, along with some hands on mentoring.)

My FAC has today come back with the additional conditions worded as such:

5. The (I) .17HMR CZ Rifle and sound Moderator (IIb & IIb) .243 rifle and sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting (I) Vermin & Fox (IIa) Fox (IIb) Deer whilst attending a DSC Level 1 course at (the name of the centre I am attending in March) and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief constable of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

6. The certificate holder may posses, purchase or acquire expanding ammo, or the missiles of such ammo, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with (a) the lawful shooting of deer (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.
As I read it:
.17HMR is fine for Vermin and Fox
.243 is fine for Fox

I, once I have completed the DSC1, can then apply for my ticket to be revised to cover deer on my permissions.

This is not an open ticket

Does that sound about right?

Thanks

Jerry
PS, trip planned to Sportsman in Exeter on Saterday, could be expensive!
 

mjjl

Well-Known Member
#2
sounds about right to me,
your lucky mate, thames valley police have been doing my fac renewal and a variation for nearing six months now, still they have now said it'll be here by the weekend, hopefully there won't be any mistakes this time and i wont have to send it back so they can correct it, fingers crossed.
 

zaitsev

Well-Known Member
#3
I suspect that the codition is unlawful. The more people that let them get away with imposing such conditions the easier it will be for them to impose them in the future. If you have land on which you can shoot deer then you should be granted a variation for that purpose. What this condition is effectively doing is making the aquisition of DSC1 an essential precursor to the grant of an variation of the FAC for deer stalking. It is not compulsory and if you are a member of BASC i would get them involved ASAP. The sooner this kind of nonsense from forces stops the better. BTW mate this is no refelction on you whatsoever, its the bl***y cpos that p**s me off.

Cheers

Z
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#4
I agree, there is nothing in Home Office guidelines that requires the gaining of DSC as a condition of granting any rifle on your FAC for deer and we should avoid any such attempts as they will make the possession of DSC1 de facto a condition of having a deer calibre.

It is a Chief Constable's condition and as such I believe not technically enforceable in law.

No one is suggesting you go on a fox course to use the same weapon on foxes!
 

nuttyspaniel

Well-Known Member
#5
Sanders that is defo 1 for BASC mate. It indeed isnt an open ticket and you can only shoot deer whilst doing your level 1!!!! That itself is a feet as you dont actually stalk live animals when you sit the test! My ticket is my 1st and have held it for a year it was open from the outset! I had my permission plus let and INVITE days on the form when I applied. There is also a codition that the land must be deemed suitable by the chief!! Does this mean you must ask every time you go somewhere that the land is suitable?? As all the other posts are saying its a crock o sh@@e and the part regarding the level 1 shows how little they know. All the best for the future.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#6
Have to say Sanders I agree with the other postings. Level I is not a requirement YET!! It would seem that your Chief constable has tied you up like a kipper.

What if you have an invite from a professional stalker to go stalking in his/her company :( To have a named piece of ground just to take Level 1 is cobblers mate. And unworkable for you, how can you gain experience.

If you would care to PM me sometime I can see about taking you out for a Roe Buck on a small piece I have in West Sussex, no charge. But I would ring Sussex back and get the condition on the 243 changed. If I can help you I will ;) Its up to you.
 

swampy

Account Suspended
#7
conditions

is there a comma between (IIb) Deer AND whilst?

IF THERE IS THEN YOU ARE OK AND IF NOT IT IS TIME TO RING BASC.
 

stone

Well-Known Member
#8
sanders
can i just make this suggestion, ring your FLO just to query this as they may hav made a mistake, before you do anything to drastic as a good relationship with your FLO will reap benifits but if they haven't seek some proffensional advice as this is does not seem right
stone
 

sandersj89

Well-Known Member
#9
Thanks for the input guys, I am down in devon at the moment on a ropey 3g mobile connection but I have contacted BASC about this and another issue I have just discovered.

I will post more details tomrrow when I can find a spot with a faster connection. Suffice it to say, BASC have some ideas.

Jerry
 

swampy

Account Suspended
#10
stone is right

Yes he is. It may have been a typo where that crucial comma is missed. Give them a call before putting big wheels in action.
 

cjm1066

Well-Known Member
#11
Can I ask a question, if sandersj89 is ok to use a 243 for fox on his land how can it not be “safe” if he shoots at a deer? What magic of alchemy changes the ballistics and hence safety according to the target aimed at?

DSC1 is a good idea for all stalkers but if you already shooting foxes safely, you can shoot a deer safely on the same land.

Read the post by swampy, http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1227 the police do get frustrated with the law, but don’t they make a meal out of administrating it – given a chance.
 

sandersj89

Well-Known Member
#13
Sorry for the delay, just back from Devon, managed to go shopping for a new rifle but more of that later...

I sent Matthew Perring at BASC a note and this is his reply:

My original email:

Hi, I am a BASC Member, and would like some clarification around Fire Arms land clearance, Open Tickets etc.

I have held an FAC for approx 1 year for .17HMR and .22LR. I have only ever bough the HMR and recently completed a 1for1 variation to remove the .22LR and replace with .242 to be used as a dual purpose Fox and Deer calibre. I have also held a SGC for over 20 years so feel I am an experienced shot.

FAC and SGC both issued by Sussex Police.

On application for the variation of .243 I was asked to complete a DSC course. As I had planned to do this anyway I did not have an issue and they have issued me a ticket with the following conditions:

5. The (I) .17HMR CZ Rifle and sound Moderator (IIb & IIb) .243 rifle and sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting (I) Vermin & Fox (IIa) Fox (IIb) Deer whilst attending a DSC Level 1 course at (the name of the centre I am attending in March) and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief constable of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

6. The certificate holder may posses, purchase or acquire expanding ammo, or the missiles of such ammo, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with (a) the lawful shooting of deer (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.

Question 1
Do you believe I would be within my rights to ask for the DSC condition to be removed if I were to fail the DSC as I believe they is no legal requirement?

Question 2
Would it be reasonable to ask if once I pass the DSC that my ticket could be moved to an Open status?

Question 3
One of my permissions to shoot is at the family farm in Devon, the main reason for the HMR is rabbit control and the reason I have asked for a .243 is to have something more suitable for fox control and the occasional deer that causes damage.

Upon speaking to Devon and Cornwall Police Firearms today they have informed me that the land is only cleared up to .22magnum, therefore I cannot use the .243 there. This strikes me as a little odd as one of my other permissions in Sussex is very flat topography wise and has a number of foot paths criss crossing it. The land in Devon is typically undulating for the area and centres around a number of valleys, some of which are very steep. No foot paths in the area what so ever.

What strategy can I use to get the assessment raised to .243, I have asked for a site visit but would like to know the best way to approach them.

Many thanks
This is his reply:

Dear Mr Sandersj89


Sussex police are notorious for odd conditions and unfortunately the conditions imposed regarding DSC 1 should not have been put on your certificate unless you agreed to them. You already have experience in handling firearm as you are a FAC holder. However if the only option was to refuse the rifles then this is the next best thing and should be changed without problem once the course has been completed satisfactorily.

In essence where somebody is a fit person and has experience with the operation of firearms as you clearly do regardless of the calibre of the existing firearms, then they should grant larger ones without question, however Sussex view larger calibres as dangerous compared with smaller ones, which to be honest is rubbish. If you have the means and opportunity to shoot deer and foxes, then they should have applied the standard condition as a course in deer management is not required by law.

This condition may be adept for those new to shooting and I mean brand new, no experience, if the only option was to refuse the certificate, or the applicant could do some training or gain experience and then apply for the certificate.

The silly thing is, you don’t shoot deer on DSC 1 and that is what the condition allows, they could have simply put a condition on your certificate that says target shooting, they clearly have no clue about the syllabus. Though it might be best to keep quiet as they may then create a fuss about no deer being shot on the course and require you to gain practical experience of deer, which is also not required in law.

If you fail your course, please come back to me and I will help you change the condition.

2. Yes why not, they will probably say no in Sussex until you have had the full bore rifles for a year or so, but it is worth asking, but sdadly yo cannot appeal decision relating to condition changes, so they have the upper hand.

3. You need to speak to Barry Cullacott (senior licensing officer) or Tom Sands (the manager) at D&C police. Ask them for the NFLMS detail of the land and when it was last checked. If Sussex haven’t initiated a check of the land recently for your application then there has been a fialing. You can then ask D&C to check it again, but they will probably want Sussex to make an official request, if so, come back to me.

Best wishes

MATT PERRING
Firearms & Explosives Officer
I am going to go back to him with some other questions and need to sort out the land clearance for the farm in Devon. An experianced stalker came out over the weekend to help set up my new rifle and his view was it was entirely suitable to a .243. Rolling hills, little vallies, no foot paths, etc. Total acreage of the farm is just under 300acres.

Jerry
 
#14
My local constabulary insisted on a DSC1 before allowing a variation although I've got many years experience and an RCO ticket. Think it may be because I didn't have my own land and wanted deer for anywhere that's already cleared (others in the area haven't had to get a DSC1 or prove experience)...
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#15
It's shame there is too much of this going on, it is not a legal requirement just a local requirement. I wonder who would get ****ed off first if all of these demands went through, and were dealt with by BASC, the Police or BASC.

I'm bloody glad these things did not crop up when I got my FAC.

John
 

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