FAC's, Proofing and Variations

Chops

Well-Known Member
#1
Had an interesting chat with A&S Firearms dept today. I have just got my ticket back from its renewal having requested that my 243 Win space be listed as 6mm. This was requested so that when I get my Sako rebarrelled to 6x47 lapua it would be legitimate on my ticket.

The ticket came back with 243 listed again. I called the Firearms Dept to ask if they made a mistake and whether they could do the change. The reason they gave for not making the change is because every time a rifle has a proof/reproof for a part replaced (ie not threading the current barrel), the owners FAC must go back to the licensing dept for approval... :eek:
Even if you get your barrel replaced in the same calibre this is still the case. :eek: :eek: :eek:

I will have to put a variation in... another 2 week wait then :cry:
 

csl

Administrator
Site Staff
#2
That can't be right, can it? Sometime I think A&S make it up as they go along!

RE: 2 weeks for a variation - I wish!

Mine is in with A&S for a variation at the moment (3 weeks and counting). Everyone I have spoken to so far has told me that someone else is dealing with it so I am starting to think they have lost it. :rolleyes:
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#3
That can't be right, can it?
That's what i said - the lady who dealt with it (Liz) was very helpful, but insisted that my FAC had to be returned for a variation... even though the calibre had not changed. Very confusing and very irretating. What do they plan put on the variation, change 243 to 6mm - which is what I asked for in the first place and thus saving all this hassel :rolleyes:

I am not sure if the licensing teams have knowledge of or are trained on firearms' calibres. I am not convinced that they realise that 243 is 6mm

I mentioned to her that maybe it was an idea for them to publise this sort of information on their website. :???:
 

nuttyspaniel

Well-Known Member
#4
Chops all fair points but a 243 is not a 6x47, nor a 6mm is a 243 wssm etc etc. So in all intents and purposes the bore has not change but the calibre has. That may be the problem.


cheers

nutty
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#5
Nuttyspaniel - I know where you are coming from, but I did speak with a couple of gunsmiths about this. The calibre is different from the cartridge; FAC's address calibre.

My FAC does say 243 and not Winchester (Win) 243. I have heard of target chaps that have 6mm on their tickets (granted not in A&S area) as they are re-barreling their shooters all of the time. I just wonder whether they submit their tickets for a variation every time they put a new tube on?

Just hope A&S don't take too long...

Cheers

Chops
 

re'M'ington

Well-Known Member
#6
I was having major trouble with A&S,so,I contacted S.A.C.S. and,they sorted them out in double quick time,so,if I was you I would do just the same.I had previously tried the same with B.A.S.C. and got nowhere,so,it is definitely worth a try.And,if you have to join them in order to do it,then please tell them that I had told you about what hey had done for me.....................'M'
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#7
re'M'ington

I hope that don't need to go down that route, but really appreciate the pointer. If I do, I will let them know it was you that put me in their direction

Cheers

Chops
 

dasherman

Well-Known Member
#8
I've just done this. My fac had a slot for a .243 rifle [not .243 Win] When I sent the rifle for proof after rebarreling I had it proofed as a .243x47 [identical to a 6x47]
 

Mat

Well-Known Member
#9
I'm with dasherman on this: 6x47 is a wildcat, so when you take it to proof, you supply the proof rounds. So just call it what you like: 243 Chops??? Have it engraved on the barrel by the proof house then the Police can't really argue. :lol:

I've got a Wildcat barrel, I called it 6 x 51 Lapua, fine except that my mate the gunsmith insisted that it should my name instead, and so my name is on the barrel... :evil:
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#10
Mat & Dasherman... that is a great idea; I like the sound of 243 Chops!!! :lol:

I will have a word with my gunsmith and see what he can sort out...

Mat -
when you take it to proof, you supply the proof rounds.
How are proof rounds made up? What constitues them in terms of powder load/pressure required?

Cheers

Chops
 

jingzy

Account Suspended
#11
It sounds like your FLO's dont know what they are talking about. Who is A & S anyway?
Years ago, you could ask for a .22 centrefire and you could buy anything from a 22 hornet to a 22-250. I dont know if this has changed.!

There is certainly a disparity between FLO 's and the law as THEY see it. I think we are lucky in Aberdeenshire, their office usually have well informed people in the office, exceptionally helpful and turn round times of variations of less than a week.
:D


J
 

Mat

Well-Known Member
#12
AFAIK with wildcat rounds, with no defined pressure limit within the CIP, you can load what you like. So just go with a starting load. You need 2 rounds. That's basically what I did.

IMHO the whole thing with naming of rounds / calibres is just silly, I mean it's not like 243 is exactly 6mm, 308 is not 7.62 mm, 30-06 uses a 308 bullet, 303 is actually 311 etc etc. So what's in a name?
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#13
Zingzy - A&S is Avon and Somerset.

Mat
the whole thing with naming of rounds / calibres is just silly,
I could not agree more. If the police were to say that they judged rifles on their energy potential (eg average ftlbs for calibre requested) then this would make some sense - it is this after all that they use to define 'deer legal'.

It just stings to ask for variations for absolutly no reason, especially when the people who are judgeing the rules have little or no knowledge of the subject detail. I know they try their best, and to be honest this is only bit of agro I have ever had from A&S - they have always treated me fairly... until now :evil: - so 243Chops it is!
 
#14
243 WIN OR 6MM

Hi Chops
If you knew you wanted a 6x47 Lapua why did'nt you ask em for one?
243 Win is a product code registered to and owned by Winchester.
The callibre is widely accepted as 6mm, but you could argue this, if
you are measuring in the "lands or the grooves".
A bit like measuring 221 FB.222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 etc etc They are all 224cal,unless your measuring in the grooves, and then it could be???
Throw in several police aurthorities,all interpreting the guide lines as they see fit,or what suits them, and we have a fine mix of minds.
Always best to ask them for their "HELP"
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#15
Hi Fireball,

I did ask them for a 6mm slot - basically it would replace and cover my 243. But they said thos would require a variation, and this had to be done after my ticket renewal :eek: and not at the same time!

My tickets clearly says calibre and not cartridge; therefore I would have thought that 243 would be covered by 6mm and vise versa... apartently not :cry:

The callibre is widely accepted as 6mm, but you could argue this, if you are measuring in the "lands or the grooves".
A bit like measuring 221 FB.222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 etc etc They are all 224cal,unless your measuring in the grooves, and then it could be???
A fair statement but it does require a certain level of understanding that I am not convinced the FLO's have! :lol:

Cheers

Chops
 

csl

Administrator
Site Staff
#16
I can sort of understand the bureaucratic reasons for being reluctant to allow .243 and 6mm to be completely interchangeable, as you could end up with a rifle that says "6mm" on the barrel and a certificate that says .243 or vice versa.... and that text mismatch would give a bureaucrat parity error night terrors! :p

However, I wonder how they would feel about asking for your certificate to say .243/6mm? This is common practice with .223/5.56, .308/7.62 and .38sp/.357mag after all...


It was the bit about needing a variation to have your rifle re-barrelled in the same calibre that I thought must be completely wrong! They say these things without checking - I guess they think that so long as they give incorrect advice that errs on the side of being too strict it is ok!?
 

Chops

Well-Known Member
#17
After chatting to the riflesmith i am going to use, I think another call to A&S firearms licensing is required. If they want a variation I will do it - but I want to know what they want me to put for a calibre? I will suggest 6mm/243 as this covers the correct area. Putting 6x47 lapua would be wrong as it is a cartridge designation and not a calibre!

We shall see what they say. I will keep you all updated...

Chops
 

manc-munsters

Account Suspended
#18
The new national firearms licensing database is supposed to be sorting this problem. Some forces are already using it after a successful trial at a few departments in 2008

Greater Manchester Police use the system now and do not use the cartridge length in the description any more. If you now apply for, say, a 300WSM, the authority on your FAC states " one 30 cal rifle" thus allowing you to buy a 300WSM, 300WBYMAG, 30 carbine etc etc etc

lets hope the same gets rolled out across the country soon!

I did once apply for a 22WM rimfire over my pal's (300 acres) land in Scotland for long range rabbits. I already had a 22RF and a 22-250 over the land. The local FLO rang my pal and stated he didn't really want to grant the rifle as it was such a powerful "magnum" calibre :D
 

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