Few Questions regarding storage etc.

[Sol]

My mentor's renewal Is coming up, and with that we plan too ask about my future application.

1. If I'm correct cabinet sharing is allowed however If It is, we have to have the same calibres listed on both our tickets Is this correct? (that are stored in that particular safe)
Were renovating the house so we arent installing a safe in my home since there will be semi-frequent changes on where were living worst case senario, I can install a personal safe with mentor no problem.

2.Is there any way for us to co-own rifles together? e.g there in his name, but I'm able to go alone with them? (I'm not sure about this one, I just want to check Its not a problem I can buy a .222/22 easy enough, and take his extra 243 eventually)

3.If not I'm assuming the best way to go about it would be having one of his spare rifles moved to my ticket?


My mentor has had a FAC since about 20 (coming 70) as expected someone that age they've not quite kept up too date on various changes that are irreverent too themselves so whilst they say "Its fine" I want to make sure it actually is given it In fact is my license, (we'll be speaking with our local officer regardless and seeing what the best outcome is for our scenario)

 

[enfieldspares]

You cannot have "access" to ANY s1 firearm (or ammunition) for which you do not have authority to possess. Regardless of calibres being identical you must have authority for a specific weapon. That may be as either the owner or as a loanee. That applies the other way about to your mentor.

Now as to what may be considered as "access" is where you would need to talk to your FEO. For example they may be happy if an eye is fitted in the cabinet and weapons you don't have authority to possess are chained to that. With a padlock for which you do not have the key. And vice versa.

You have in one respect answered your own question and on the relevant table on your FAC when it comes are the words "State whether sold, let on hire, given or lent". I hope that helps your choice as to what you apply for on your application. Good Luck!

 

[Sol]

You cannot have "access" to ANY s1 firearm (or ammunition) for which you do not have authority to possess. Regardless of calibres being identical you must have authority for a specific weapon. That may be as either the owner or as a loanee. That applies the other way about to your mentor.

Now as to what may be considered as "access" is where you would need to talk to your FEO. For example they may be happy if an eye is fitted in the cabinet and weapons you don't have authority to possess are chained to that. With a padlock for which you do not have the key. And vice versa.

You have in one respect answered your own question and on the relevant table on your FAC when it comes are the words "State whether sold, let on hire, given or lent". I hope that helps your choice as to what you apply for on your application. Good Luck!

I see so basically I want to be marked as a Loanee for each rifle I plan to use that isn't "mine" I'm assuming (on his, and my ticket)? Is there any more information on that system that could be beneficial for me to know?

The obvious other route Is for him to gift me one of his rifles and have my/his ticket updated to reflect that that he's no longer the owner of it, and I have my own safe installed that I myself only have the keys for. (probably law wise the easiest, but tedious since It would ruin him using one of his rifles)

I think my initial statement might of been slightly confused since I've seen mentions of Parents and there Children's(Teens) almost co-owning rifles but If the actual technical term for it law wise Is loanee that's probably what I was refering too, I believe if I'm right the actual owner retains all rights too the safe keys (so no extra keys for the kid) but they themselves are allowed to "loan" there parents rifle for each outing with the assumption Its returned when Its not in active use, the owner themselves as far as I understood does not need to be with them (age Irreverent here, Its just the example I seen it mentioned most)

Am I correct in that?

 

[SimpleSimon]

I see so basically I want to be marked as a Loanee for each rifle I plan to use that isn't "mine" I'm assuming (on his, and my ticket)? Is there any more information on that system that could be beneficial for me to know?

The obvious other route Is for him to gift me one of his rifles and have my/his ticket updated to reflect that that he's no longer the owner of it, and I have my own safe installed that I myself only have the keys for. (probably law wise the easiest, but tedious since It would ruin him using one of his rifles

I think my initial statement might of been slightly confused since I've seen mentions of Parents and there Children's(Teens) almost co-owning rifles but If the actual technical term for it law wise Is loanee that's probably what I was refering too, I believe if I'm right the actual owner retains all rights too the safe keys (so no extra keys for the kid) but they themselves are allowed to "loan" there parents rifle for each outing with the assumption Its returned when Its not in active use, the owner themselves as far as I understood does not need to be with them (age Irreverent here, Its just the example I seen it mentioned most)

Am I correct in that?

I think your understanding of this is over-complicated.

For the purposes of (an adult) obtaining a certificate and owning/using/accessing rifles, that person must have that specific rifle on their certificate. A rifle can appear on any number of certificates, one person will be the "posessor" and any others will be the "sharer" but those are just administrative terms. Anyone can have keys to a cabinet as long as they're not able to access any firearms they're not authorised to possess. As said above, it may be acceptable to chain or cable lock others, but the easiest way is for every rifle to appear on both certificates.

You mentioned the mentor possibly gifting you a rifle and installing a separate cabinet - there's no reason he can't keep that rifle on his certificate as well, let you both have keys, and then he can continue to use it.

 

[Sol]

I think your understanding of this is over-complicated.

For the purposes of (an adult) obtaining a certificate and owning/using/accessing rifles, that person must have that specific rifle on their certificate. A rifle can appear on any number of certificates, one person will be the "posessor" and any others will be the "sharer" but those are just administrative terms. Anyone can have keys to a cabinet as long as they're not able to access any firearms they're not authorised to possess. As said above, it may be acceptable to chain or cable lock others, but the easiest way is for every rifle to appear on both certificates.

You mentioned the mentor possibly gifting you a rifle and installing a separate cabinet - there's no reason he can't keep that rifle on his certificate as well, let you both have keys, and then he can continue to use it.

I see, thank you very much.

 

[VSS]

Yes, you can have shared or co-owned rifles. They are listed on both of yours FACs and both of you can use them.

Yes, you can have shared storage, but you can only have access to the firearms that are on your FAC.
So, either you need a separate cabinet specifically for the shared/co-owned rifles that both of you can access, or you put all of your mentors firearms on your FAC as well, or he installs an extra level of security for any non shared firearms, such as trigger locks.

Good luck with your application

 

[Greenmist]

Yes you can have co ownership of rifles, providing both have reason to have them, getting this rather simple request across to a firearms dept can prove difficult, either ring them (and expect to explain it a few times) or chat with the FEO in person about it

 

[enfieldspares]

Am I correct in that?

Firearms law in the UK uses the term "possession" to mean BOTH the person who owns the gun (that is has "title" to it) and the person who has, even if not the owner "control" of it. This is the old case of Sullivan v Caithness. Why Sullivan? This was from the days when they used the name of the police officer who presented the prosecution rather than "R" to mean "the Crown". The Earl of Caithness owned an unlicensed gun, a revolver, but kept it at his mother's house. Yet he was the one that was found to be in unlawful possession of it.

Firearms | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

Possession and “have with him”​

Possession is not limited to having physical custody, but includes where a defendant has something under their control: Sullivan v Earl of Caithness [1976] 62 Cr. App. R. 105.

There was apparently a need to make this easier to prosecute so the later offence of "minding" a firearm was then created under the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction Act. Or for some such need.

Now in simple terms let us forget guns and talk of cars. Hire cars.

You, SOL, want to use a car owned by MENTOR. MENTOR is the proprietor of a car hire frim. Mentor loans, hires, you one of his cars and you get a speeding ticket. In law although Mentor is the owner and "possesses" the car you, when the speeding offence took place was in "control" of the car.

So that is how two people can lawfully "possess" the same one item. Mentor lawfully owns the car. He is allowing you, Sol, for the term of it being used by you to have "control" of it.

AND THERE WILL BE DOCUMENTS OF OWNERSHIP FOR THE CAR AND A CONTRACT OF LOAD OR HIRE BETWEEN YOU AND MENTOR. JUST THE SAME AS FOR THE RIFLE THERE WILL BE MENTOR'S FAC THAT HAS IT LISTED ON IT AND YOUR FAC THAT ALSO IN THE RELEVANT TABLE HAS IT LISTED AS "ON LOAN".

So I know it is a crude analogy but apply that to your rifle problem and I hope it helps. And, no, you won't need a written "contract" as by entering the rifle on your FAC as "lent" that will suffice. And of course when first meeting your FEO explain what you want to do and he/she will likely help you do that.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

My late Father had my 243 on his FAC. He only had 20 rounds possession allowed, whereas I had considerably more.
What it meant was that he took take my rifle stalking lawfully elsewhere to the estate I worked on, with a box of rounds.
As his rifles were all for range use,it allowed him to travel and stalk deer elsewhere.
I had none of his entered on my FAC.