Fieldsports Britain driven muntjac

baguio

Well-Known Member
#81
To be an experience shot to hit a running target in an area were safety is not so important ie vast areas of woodland in Europe is a bit different to the situation he put himself in. But that's the nature of the show
I fail to understand your comments on safety at all Teazel. To say that safety has less importance in Europe is particularly worrying. Safety is of utmost importance on any ground where I'm shooting that's for certain, regardless of where I'm shooting. I have shot on a few moving and collaboration cull days and I have the utmost confidence in the safety of the rifles who are out with me. If I didn't then I wouldn't be there.
No where have I said that this shooting appeals to me either. I simply said that the arguments that you put forward weren't valid from the video.
 
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Chasey

Well-Known Member
#82
How many lactating Muntjac does are shot by stalkers? Quite a few i don't doubt. How many people shoot roe does at the start of the season so their fawns find it hard to survive the winter?


I was taught that muntjac does were either lactating or pregnant and thats about it.

Thats part of the problem with Muntjack, they get pregnant at any time I believe which is why theres no closed seasion on them


Now it not nice to suggest Muntjack are vermin but frankly thats how they are treated. Shoot on site any calibre any sex any time of the year. Just get rid of them

Thats the general attitude I have witnessed.

Personally I find them the best tasting and one of the prettiest deer, but I understand their exponential growth is a BIG problem
 

Dave881

Well-Known Member
#83
I was taught that muntjac does were either lactating or pregnant and thats about it.

Thats part of the problem with Muntjack, they get pregnant at any time I believe which is why theres no closed seasion on them


Now it not nice to suggest Muntjack are vermin but frankly thats how they are treated. Shoot on site any calibre any sex any time of the year. Just get rid of them

Thats the general attitude I have witnessed.

Personally I find them the best tasting and one of the prettiest deer, but I understand their exponential growth is a BIG problem
I was taught very similar about muntjac, to my understanding they breed on a 7 month cycle, hence no close season. If I am correct they are ready to breed approximately 2 weeks after giving birth and fawns are independent at around 5 months old, meaning there is very little gap between rearing young and giving birth. I do shoot the odd muntjac and also think they are a lovely little deer. They offer challenging stalking and are fascinating to watch. Yes they are a big problem and do a lot of damage but I feel they need to be treated the same respect as any other animal and it's a shame that they do get considered as vermin by some. They are amazing little deer and a joy to see.
 

Dave881

Well-Known Member
#85
We don't have them in Scotland (yet), but for my part if I'm lucky enough to still be around if and when they do appear they would get exactly the same amount of respect as any other animal I shoot
Most do have the attitude we share which is brilliant but unfortunately I have spoken to a few people that have a shoot without question attitude towards them. It is a minority attitude but it's a shame that some people have this view.
 

Jagare

Well-Known Member
#86
I was taught that muntjac does were either lactating or pregnant and thats about it.

Thats part of the problem with Muntjack, they get pregnant at any time I believe which is why theres no closed seasion on them


Now it not nice to suggest Muntjack are vermin but frankly thats how they are treated. Shoot on site any calibre any sex any time of the year. Just get rid of them

Thats the general attitude I have witnessed.

Personally I find them the best tasting and one of the prettiest deer, but I understand their exponential growth is a BIG problem
I'm sure your right about the general attitude to muntjac you witness. There never seems to be a problem with shooting pregnant roe or fallow does so shooting pregnant muntjac should not be any different.
Shooting lactating muntjac does is more problematic. With a animal that often is only seen fleetingly often at first or last light or in poor woodland light conditions it must be hard to judge the condition the doe is in. As muntjac are a deer species that need to be culled hard there will always be a unpleasant side to culling muntjac does. As i said before i doubt very much whether any more lactating does would be shot driven than stalked
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
#87
it's a shame that some people have this view
I once knew a guy (I hesitate to call him a 'friend' as he turned out to be an asshole of epic proportions) who stated he had 'absolutely no respect for deer whatsoever'. I no longer associate myself with him. That kind of attitude has absolutely no place in the shooting world
 

Glyn 1

Well-Known Member
#88
I once knew a guy (I hesitate to call him a 'friend' as he turned out to be an asshole of epic proportions) who stated he had 'absolutely no respect for deer whatsoever'. I no longer associate myself with him. That kind of attitude has absolutely no place in the shooting world
I'm afraid there there are an increasing number of landowners and 'organisations/bodies' that just see all deer (and a lot of other wildlife) as vermin and an increasing number of shooters who just see all deer as targets. It's not good and it is little wonder those that oppose what we do seem to be gaining momentum; we often play straight into their hands.
 
#89
A muntjac is a deer, is a deer, is a deer. I do not like and have never liked "driving" deer. The cull in the Cairngorms using helicopters appalled me and as regards the "best practice policy" required, flew in the face of all reason.
I have only once shot a driven deer and that was a Muntjac doe (no fawn) which would not leave a release pen despite gates being opened and wire lifted. I shot her at five yards with SSG as she was pushed the length of the pen to me.
I'm sorry but my standards regarding deer seem to be higher than some folks ideas, and however good the shooters are I am still against it.
 
#90
I am fortunate to have permissions where we have a lot of muntjac, To clarify, a muntjac will become fertile when she reaches 7kg body weight, which is around 7months of age, she will carry her fawn for 7 months then within 36 hours of giving birth she can be pregnant again. She will wean her young at 2 months of age . As you can see from this coupled with the ideal habitat where there is a lot of cover you could soon have a problem. I agree they have to be culled hard but with driven I don't believe you have enough time to asses the muntjac properly. Generally if there is a doe with a buck in attendance she has a youngster laid up nearby, so when driven that assessment cant be made . We have found no need whatsoever to go down this route, as we put a lot of time in to achieve our cull. I am not saying mistakes havnt been made but I believe you have more time when stalking and if they don't look like stopping a quick whistle or shout gives you enough time to stop them and place the right shot. This is only my opinion based on my own experience.
 

baguio

Well-Known Member
#91
I was taught that muntjac does were either lactating or pregnant and thats about it.
As others have said, mature muntjac are often lactating AND pregnant. Even when they're not lactating the last fawn is still dependent on it's mother for several months, just like other deer species. That's why you should be trying to shoot heavily pregnant does, as you then know that the previous fawn is probably old enough to no longer be dependent on its mother.
 
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Dave881

Well-Known Member
#92
I once knew a guy (I hesitate to call him a 'friend' as he turned out to be an asshole of epic proportions) who stated he had 'absolutely no respect for deer whatsoever'. I no longer associate myself with him. That kind of attitude has absolutely no place in the shooting world
I agree with you 100%, if you have no compassion for the animals you hunt then you shouldn't have as gun. If you don't care how can you make an honest evaluation from shot to shot as to whether you can kill it cleanly? I understand that accidents happen but it's only by caring that we will turn down riskier shots. Just yesterday evening I let a fallow buck go as he was quartering away from me at an angle that was too steep for my liking, it was only 50 yards and yes I probably could have shot it without any problems but if I had been an inch left it would have gone through its guts, an inch right would have smashed it's shoulder and missed the vitals. I am happy with my decision not to shoot and maybe if I see him again he will stand better and won't be so lucky. I have spent and still spend a lot of time learning about the animals I hunt, it's makes me a better stalker and helps me judge each individual situation better. It's people that don't care that make non shooters dislike the vast majority of us who do care even more.
 

Orion

Well-Known Member
#93
ok by the letter of the law yes your correct
shakey
It’s not quite that cut and dried though. The various Staghound and Buckhound packs, mounted and on foot, do not utilise the hounds to kill the quarry. Instead the animal is brought to bay and then dispatched with a firearm. The method of dispatch of foxes by the ‘gun packs’ of Wales, upland England and Scotland needs no further explanation, with the hounds flushing the quarry. Then you have the dogs used for hunting in conjunction with falcons and other birds of prey. In none of these activities do the dogs kill the quarry.

This might be of interest to you as it clearly references an independent review rejecting the idea that there should be a limit to the number of dogs that can be used to flush to guns (in Scotland): CA: Politics, principle and hunting in Scotland
 
#95
Our driven days are not done on huge tracts of land. Of course its feasible to have a safe deer drive on a few hundred acres. Every weekend during the hunting season in Sweden Roe, boar and moose are hunted using dogs to teams of hunters. Germany is a crowded country but still manage to have driven hunts safely. Its about knowing your ground and common sense.
How do you know Mr Luptons shooting was unsafe? Were you there? Do you know the ground? Or are you giving an uninformed opinion like we are so very quick to accuse the anti's of . I've never been on a driven hunt that can be in any way described as, carnage.
Area of Germany 357,386 km² population 82.79m verses area of England (no munty in Scotland, limited in Wales) 130,395 km² population 54.79m so we're a little more crowded.

I don't like the idea of shooting running quarry with rifles because of the chance of wounding as much as killing, whether thats vermin or deer and i don't for one second believe its more efficient than a proficient stalker for most situations in the UK.
 
#96
Here is a new video by the respected German monthly hunting magazine DJZ. See what you think afterwards ref their driven tactics.
It shows very well what I have experienced but sadly not at these catering levels.
 

Dave881

Well-Known Member
#97
Area of Germany 357,386 km² population 82.79m verses area of England (no munty in Scotland, limited in Wales) 130,395 km² population 54.79m so we're a little more crowded.

I don't like the idea of shooting running quarry with rifles because of the chance of wounding as much as killing, whether thats vermin or deer and i don't for one second believe its more efficient than a proficient stalker for most situations in the UK.
That's really interesting about the population density of the England Vs Germany, as sad as it is I have worked out that if every person were to be given an equal amount of land you would have 2380 square meters each. I think that if you estimate 60-70% of the population were to be in built up areas at any one time surely there would be plenty of places that this style of shooting? Not saying that it's right as I am still undecided myself but the numbers were interesting to me. As I said earlier this discussion I would like to learn how to shoot driven game with a rifle using targets to see what it is all about before I make my mind up about it as an intended discipline. What I have been thinking about since this discussion started is the value of learning this skill for the awful event that an initial shot goes wrong, it could be the difference between getting the animal on the ground in a few seconds or a long search in the woods. I am willing to openly admit that on a couple of occasions in my nearly 10 years of stalking I have had it go wrong, luckily I have managed to sort it out quickly to end the suffering and pack up to head to the range to find out if something was wrong with me or my kit. I am currently mentoring a friend and nothing has gone wrong which is fantastic but in the future I would like to take more new people out stalking as I get permissions that will allow me to, and that obviously increases the risk that something might happen so I think for me this would be an essential skill to have. What are everybody's thoughts on learning this style of shooting as a back up should the worst happen? I am in no way saying anyone who doesn't agree with shooting running game is wrong but think this is an interesting flip side to this style of shooting. Sorry about the long rambling post but it's really has got me thinking
Regards Dave
 

Orion

Well-Known Member
#98
Do it. You'll find the challenge of shooting running deer or boar on a range or shooting cinema very stimulating as you obviously have a hankering to give it a try. If it then leads to driven hunting I doubt you'll regret it, but if not you'll at the very least have gained another skill set which, as you say, just might get you out of a sticky situation in the future.
 
#99
I fail to understand your comments on safety at all Teazel. To say that safety has less importance in Europe is particularly worrying. Safety is of utmost importance on any ground where I'm shooting that's for certain, regardless of where I'm shooting. I have shot on a few moving and collaboration cull days and I have the utmost confidence in the safety of the rifles who are out with me. If I didn't then I wouldn't be there.
No where have I said that this shooting appeals to me either. I simply said that the arguments that you put forward weren't valid from the video.
Well then I stand corrected if the general consensus is that shooting a running deer is as safe as shooting one stationary and that most rifles will have the time and ability to re access the situation to carry out successive shots safely if the first one fails. I will ignore the mythical tales I hear of dogs being shot on driven boar hunts,( and dare I say human injury's and even fatalities.). So Croatian boar drives and Spanish Monteria's are run to control animal populations and not because its fun and big business.
Well call me cynical but I will stick with teaching the shooting of stationary deer and importance of safe shooting positions. Every year when the pheasant season is over three of us will head to a large estate that has a major Muntjac problem, we will walk quietly through the woodland and shoot between twenty to thirty Muntjac in a day, each one shot safely and accounted for. I do not believe getting the beaters to drive the deer through would increase this number. I will stick with my beliefs that a youtube channel run by a chap who looks like a startled rabbit and his pal that walks around wearing a hat of copulating falcons has one aim and that's to promote one of their sponsors, it is all really jolly japes after all.
 

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