First dog...advice please.

I’m surprised to hear that the terms english vs american labrador don’t appear to be in use in Britain? Is that right? Learn something new every day! Ubiquitous here and in Aus.
 
In answer to the OP I would get a Lab. Make sure its from hip scored parents. I like the old fashion larger type lab and not the snipey face, scrawny arsed, things that pass for labs today.
I see no problem with the way DN produces pups to suit the type and traits he requires from his dogs. It seems not a lot different from how hound packs in the UK do their breed selection. I think its a shame more people don't do the same with quite a few other breeds and then perhaps we would not see the crap many other breeds have become. The bulldog and the German shepherd are just two i can think of.
 
In answer to the OP I would get a Lab. Make sure its from hip scored parents. I like the old fashion larger type lab and not the snipey face, scrawny arsed, things that pass for labs today.
I see no problem with the way DN produces pups to suit the type and traits he requires from his dogs. It seems not a lot different from how hound packs in the UK do their breed selection. I think its a shame more people don't do the same with quite a few other breeds and then perhaps we would not see the crap many other breeds have become. The bulldog and the German shepherd are just two i can think of.
The reason for poor examples of the breeds you state and many others has nothing to do with the methods described and everything to do with greedy breeders breeding for form over function.
In the right hands even the runt of a thoughtful working bred litter can do well given half a chance.
 
In the right hands even the runt of a thoughtful working bred litter can do well given half a chance.

Absolutely true, you won't get any argument from me about that.

Unfortunately, it's a matter of supply and demand. Too many pups, limited spaces in the team. You have to work with the probabilities. There's certainly no shortage of top dogs to go around.

An undoubted problem is opportunistic male dogs slipping one past the goalie. It's very hard when on large farms, several shepherds and their teams are working together, and one bitch is right at the beginning of her cycle. Unfortunately, people make mistakes and before you know it you've got two dogs locked together. I reckon maybe 1 in every 5 or 6 litters is unintended. With such a lack of control over who screws who, it's not infrequent to have heading dogs being shagged by pig dogs, and in the case of the pig dog bitch shown earlier, knocked up by a Huntaway. If a heading dog bitch has a mongrel litter, depending on the father's background, the pups might be kept, they might not. A half-heading dog can be used for all sorts of things, particularly pig hunting and often as an indicating deer dog. But as I say, oftentimes the bitch will be taken through to whelping then the pups will disappear.

I think it's important for blokes commenting on this matter to remember that things are different here just as they are in other parts of the world. It's a peculiarly British trait to sometimes express surprise at these differences in ways that those on the receiving end find equally unpalatable. Equally, a lot of our modern metropolitan Kiwis are just the same, which is a change because they didn't used to be. Now I'm not saying I am offended at the differences of opinion in this thread at all - I repeat - not at all. But it is amusing and sometimes quite awkward to see these views expressed by people on the farm, face-to-face, for the slap down that comes their way can be quite brutal! Not really my style, but I can tell you that the odd visitor we've had has left with a terribly bruised ego after ill-advisedly taking on one of the cockies about their dog management practices...

At least we don't eat them!
 
Equally, a lot of our modern metropolitan Kiwis are just the same, which is a change because they didn't used to be. Now I'm not saying I am offended at the differences of opinion in this thread at all - I repeat - not at all. But it is amusing and sometimes quite awkward to see these views expressed by people on the farm, face-to-face, for the slap down that comes their way can be quite brutal! Not really my style, but I can tell you that the odd visitor we've had has left with a terribly bruised ego after ill-advisedly taking on one of the cockies about their dog management practices...

At least we don't eat them!

Unfortunately....It's only a matter of time. 20 years ago I would have thought Scandinavia would never be subjected to the antis in the way we are in the UK. Now it is becoming more and more common to see anti-hunting groups in Nordic countries. Germany too is under great pressure. Ignorance is the enemy, we must include and educate - being 'exclusive' failed miserably in the UK.
 
I’m surprised to hear that the terms english vs american labrador don’t appear to be in use in Britain? Is that right? Learn something new every day! Ubiquitous here and in Aus.
We use 'working' (your 'American') and 'show' (your 'English') to draw the same distinction, Dodgy. As shooters, most people on here will only have had experience with the former, which is why everyone 'triggered' at your terminology...:D
 
Ah ha! Well like I said I never knew that @CarlW.
So, to be clear, the working dogs in the UK are the thinner, ranger dogs, and the show dogs are the heavyset ones with wider heads, right?
Like this, working left, show right:

1F6F9F32-1E00-496A-A54C-91F9061BF43E.jpeg

So the one purebred pedigreed “American” that I know well these days and that I see regularly, is a dead ringer for the dog second from left. Wonderful hound. Bit fugly though...
 
[QUOTE="dodgyknees, post: 1712697, member: 18311".

At least we don't eat them!
[/QUOTE]

Ah, but you may be missing a good business opportunity. Save all the cull pups and feed them up on the goat carcass's you leave out in the field and then, when they are nice and fat export them to China. With China having a real problem with ASF they must need the extra meat. Market it as a cure for the Corona virus. Any country that believes Tiger parts give you a huge willy will surely believe that.
 
Ah ha! Well like I said I never knew that @CarlW.
So, to be clear, the working dogs in the UK are the thinner, ranger dogs, and the show dogs are the heavyset ones with wider heads, right?
Like this, working left, show right:

View attachment 150892

So the one purebred pedigreed “American” that I know well these days and that I see regularly, is a dead ringer for the dog second from left. Wonderful hound. Bit fugly though...

It can depend on breeding. Trialling dogs are often fast and wiry. Some wildfowlers have lines of larger, heavier-set dogs that can happily lug geese around all day. We still have working lab owners/breeders who are happy to use working stock from friends around the shoots. Others like top Field trial blood throughput. Many use a combination of the two

My lab from a combo of work/trial ch blood was small, short yet powerful. Her sire was FTcH Mirstan Drummer

67389381_520359438503626_1564893607997997056_n.jpg
 
Sadly @Jagare the pigs get to the goats almost immediately! But I like your thinking. I could dry them and grind them up and sell it as pig dog powder. That would get ‘em going. And confuse them...

Goats are fed to the working dogs. During quiet times when they aren’t getting to work for 50-60km or more a day, they get a goat leg or two to keep them occupied. The ranker the better! I hang them up at the kennels like in the photo below, to let the flies do their best first so they’re nice and ripe. Giving your favourite dog a cuddle after they’ve been eating week old maggoty dead goat in the height of summer is a bit of a test, but you get used to it...

Incidentally, the two dogs pictured are my absolute favourite sheep dogs, Willy the Huntaway on the left, and Neil the NZ Heading Dog on the right. These are the two dogs that taught me the basics of how to work sheep dogs, they already knew what exactly to do, and were very patient in allowing me to learn the right instructions with the whistle. Neil knew when I’d screwed up and would rarely execute the wrong command, he’d just turn and look at me with the “are you sure?” look. Just before I ended up in hospital recently, I mustered 2,800 Poll Dorsets off the hill all by myself which was quite an achievement for a part-timer, with these two dogs and two more Huntaways called Sally and Sue. This exercise I am sure was the reason my blood pressure reached critical levels! It’s all good now though and I can’t wait to get back out.

I absolutely love working the sheep dogs, it is perhaps the most satisfying non-hunting canine experience I’ve ever had.

A5A674DD-662F-4C4A-9903-6D2F685FFBF4.jpeg
 
Sadly @Jagare the pigs get to the goats almost immediately! But I like your thinking. I could dry them and grind them up and sell it as pig dog powder. That would get ‘em going. And confuse them...

Goats are fed to the working dogs. During quiet times when they aren’t getting to work for 50-60km or more a day, they get a goat leg or two to keep them occupied. The ranker the better! I hang them up at the kennels like in the photo below, to let the flies do their best first so they’re nice and ripe. Giving your favourite dog a cuddle after they’ve been eating week old maggoty dead goat in the height of summer is a bit of a test, but you get used to it...

Incidentally, the two dogs pictured are my absolute favourite sheep dogs, Willy the Huntaway on the left, and Neil the NZ Heading Dog on the right. These are the two dogs that taught me the basics of how to work sheep dogs, they already knew what exactly to do, and were very patient in allowing me to learn the right instructions with the whistle. Neil knew when I’d screwed up and would rarely execute the wrong command, he’d just turn and look at me with the “are you sure?” look. Just before I ended up in hospital recently, I mustered 2,800 Poll Dorsets off the hill all by myself which was quite an achievement for a part-timer, with these two dogs and two more Huntaways called Sally and Sue. This exercise I am sure was the reason my blood pressure reached critical levels! It’s all good now though and I can’t wait to get back out.

I absolutely love working the sheep dogs, it is perhaps the most satisfying non-hunting canine experience I’ve ever had.

View attachment 150894
Pig dog powder sounds like a plan. I like training tracking dogs. they never cease to surprise with what they are capable of. Like the time my dog was picking up scent on water. Something i had read about but was skeptical about till i saw it with my own eyes. Dogs are fascinating animals to observe. Back when i was young and worked on the farm the bosses mother would boil up dead calves. The calves were boiled whole in a 50 gall drum and served to the border collies with a dung fork. After a week or so the calves hummed a bit but the collies never complained.
 
And finally for tonight, just cos I’m feeling a bit too soft about my silly Staffords at the moment, here’s my two in the back of the CanAm after a day chasing down kid goats. They’re very useful for catching young kids, the way it works is I shoot the nanny and the yearlings, and the dogs go after the wee ones. Saves me shagging around trying to spot them in the long summer grass, provides the best exercise for the dog imaginable, and keeps them very keen. Super efficent killers, they break the neck in a flash. They're 8½ years old now, brother and sister from the same litter. Fit as, never fed scraps, a steady diet of kibble and venison or goat mince. They thrive on it. Still bang on the upper-mid range of the breed standard weight, where they will stay, for that is the key to a happy and healthy dog.

20200105_175905.jpg
 
I’m surprised to hear that the terms english vs american labrador don’t appear to be in use in Britain? Is that right? Learn something new every day! Ubiquitous here and in Aus.

I may be completely biased here but I would say the UK working labs will be of a higher standard than the American labs.
Most of the top UK trainers are regularly exporting labs to America, also training techniques very very different, but so are the demands
I'd be amazed if any uk lab trainers ever use an e collar or FF, retrieving lines on a lab which are normal across the pond.
Althou i think place board training did come from across the pond.
But then again the competition scene across there is very different to in the UK
Try googling some Paul french videos, dunno if online or not but he films many Field Trials esp the IGL championship, the big 1 for labs

I think In uk 3 man types of lab, ur show ( very heavy set 40kg +) ur modern FT stock ( very sknny snippey head, often skinny curved tail and often poor thin single coats mibbee as light as 20kg) then u have ur normal working type ( proper coat, otter tail, stocky but not too heavy 25- 30kg)
 
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