First FAC renewal refused - what can be done ?

[.30-06]

So, I got an angry call from a friend a couple of weeks ago.

A very grouchy firearms chap visited him to discuss his impending renewal - he has one slot for FAC air and he uses it for vermin control on around 600 acres in total on a neighbouring farm.

Seemingly the chap was very short, bordering on rude, and he was also quite 'overbearing' and strongly suggested that the renewal would not go through and that my friend could save himself a lot of grief and barrister fees by handing his FAC over there and then. No mention was made on how he was supposed to be able to dispose of his FAC air rifle without his FAC...

Fast forward to this morning when the postman delivered a letter stating renewal had been refused since he had only used the rifle once in the last five years - the policeman was told in the presence of a witness that use was occasional, but regular, and as recently as a couple of weeks prior. Additionally, he was also told that his permission was no longer valid. The elderly farmer is as deaf as a post so telephone calls rarely work - I doubt there would have been any sense got out of him had the police called.

There is another 400 acre permission that my friend can demonstrate permission for, and another 800 or so acres belonging to his farmer-neighbour's sister which he could also get a written statement for.

Basically nothing has changed in the five years regarding his security, address, health, intended (and actual) use, and the original land that he was previously approved for is still available to him.

So, what options are there, if any ?

Answers on a postcard please

 

[VSS]

If he's a member of basc then they ought to be fighting this on his behalf.

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

get the other perms in writing and appeal.

 

[finnbear270]

Unless the grouchy person visiting was the FLO manager, I very much doubt the possibility the person could pontificate any outcomes of applications or renewals, these people are subject to oversight, they can observe and advise, but the decision remains with the office manager. Anyone who delivers a service should do so in a manner that follows protocols.

 

[.30-06]

I told him to join BASC for that very reason when he got the renewal visit and, so far, he hasn't seen fit to.

I told him again to join earlier today after he received his letter and, well, you get the idea...

 

[jimbo1984]

If he's a member of basc then they ought to be fighting this on his behalf.

Brilliant!!!!

 

[finnbear270]

Unlikely BASC will take it on as he is not a current member, joining up after the fact is pointless in the case in hand.

 

[.30-06]

So I'm guessing that:

1. BASC wouldn't touch it after the event if he joins at this stage
2. BASC may or may not take it on to begin with regardless of length of membership
3. Appeal costs are likely to be high ?

My fried is retired on a limited income and I think the potential for high Crown Court costs is a scary proposition.

 

[Eddie P]

I'd write back refuting both of those facts. Pointing out that the conversation demonstrated regular use and that he had also explained that he had multiple other permissions.
As a side note, get the gun into an rfd ASAP incase the plod want to get funny about possesion.

 

[Alantoo]

If he has not taken advice about the advantage of a shooting organisation for support, is he the sort of bloke that also would not take advice to get written permission slips or ensure he had insurance etc. to make his renewal application go smoothly?

Given the precedence of an earlier approval provided he could show good reason i.e. vermin control in his back garden I would have though he could have applied for an open licence at this stage anyway.

On the issue of permission validity...

According to the permission form supplied by Gloucestershire Constabulary, (see below, my red highlight) if a landowner wishes to terminate the permission he should let the police know which would seem to indicate that permissions do not have a time limit on them or have to be renewed and resubmitted prior to FAC renewal.



If firearms are intended for use on land for vermin control or other sporting purposes please provide the following information. You are reminded that this information is subject to verification and the land may be subject to police inspection. This does not have to be completed if the land in question is your own.
It is confirmed that as the owner of the land I give my permission for the following
(Name)......................................................................................to use the following firearms ......................................................................................................... to control the following
species .............................................................................. on my property. I am aware this authority may be used to support an application for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate by the person named and recognise that the certificate shall be valid for 5 years. I am also aware that I may indicate any restrictions regarding this authority for the information of the chief officer of police. (Chief officers would wish to be notified if this authority is removed in the future).

1. a) Full name of property:.......................................................................................
2. b) Full postal address: ..........................................................................................
3. c) Contact telephone number(s):................................................................................
4. d) Acreage of property:.........................

Date:

Signature of Owner Print name:





Alan

 

[.30-06]

Several times during the meeting my friend was 'strongly encouraged' to hand his FAC over on the spot.

Perhaps there was dilution or mis-reporting of the facts back at FLO towers...

 

[Alantoo]

So I'm guessing that:

1. BASC wouldn't touch it after the event if he joins at this stage
2. BASC may or may not take it on to begin with regardless of length of membership
3. Appeal costs are likely to be high ?

My fried is retired on a limited income and I think the potential for high Crown Court costs is a scary proposition.

Not sure of the answers to any of your questions.

BASC were very supportive of one of my applications. BASC also backed up my negotiations of the condition for fox on the .308W. Glos. would not allow AOLQ and then tried to argue that the HO calibre guidance for good reason was absolute and only worked one way...ie .308 for deer and boar could not be used for fox...as opposed to applying for a .308 with fox control as the good reason.

But then I had been a member for 12 years and like any insurance policy you would not expect them to take on the costs of a case after the event.

The FLO presumably have reason for saying the permission is no longer valid...that needs to be addressed, by going around and getting the deaf farmer or his neighbour's sister to sign a permission slip.

Your friend should provide them with a written permission which satisfies the good reason requirement and confirm his insurance cover.

Once in five years is still a good reason arguably. But if he has been more times then he should put that in writing as well.

Alan

 

[JTO]

Sounds like a colleague or friend of the plod visitor would like to take over the shooting on the farm concerned.

 

[roryh]

I'd write back refuting both of those facts. Pointing out that the conversation demonstrated regular use and that he had also explained that he had multiple other permissions.
As a side note, get the gun into an rfd ASAP incase the plod want to get funny about possesion.

+1

 

[roryh]

Sounds like a colleague or friend of the plod visitor would like to take over the shooting on the farm concerned.

Really? Someone in such a position dishonest? Almost like Dr's being beyond culpability for firearms offences

 

[jimbo1984]

So I'm guessing that:

1. BASC wouldn't touch it after the event if he joins at this stage
2. BASC may or may not take it on to begin with regardless of length of membership
3. Appeal costs are likely to be high ?

My fried is retired on a limited income and I think the potential for high Crown Court costs is a scary proposition.

Spot on ! Basc will probably just say get a solicitor , there ya go I just saved your pal 78 quid in membership fees

 

[reloader54]

Really? Someone in such a position dishonest? Almost like Dr's being beyond culpability for firearms offences

 

[Greymaster]

Although my permissions were open ended, i.e. not time limited, and in the interim I had been granted an Open ticket during the validity of the FAC, Hampshire, on renewal, wanted me to have at least one of the permissions, any one of them, renewed with a current i.e. recent date. I did query this with them, pointing out that there had been a change of Chief Constable in the interim but when the change occurred there didn't seem to be any necessity on their part to update everyone's FAC with a new signature. It was easy to get an updated date on the permission, but I had not expected to discover that permissions have a shelf life, and we were not talking a decade, but 5 years.

If he has not taken advice about the advantage of a shooting organisation for support, is he the sort of bloke that also would not take advice to get written permission slips or ensure he had insurance etc. to make his renewal application go smoothly?

Given the precedence of an earlier approval provided he could show good reason i.e. vermin control in his back garden I would have though he could have applied for an open licence at this stage anyway.

On the issue of permission validity...

According to the permission form supplied by Gloucestershire Constabulary, (see below, my red highlight) if a landowner wishes to terminate the permission he should let the police know which would seem to indicate that permissions do not have a time limit on them or have to be renewed and resubmitted prior to FAC renewal.



If firearms are intended for use on land for vermin control or other sporting purposes please provide the following information. You are reminded that this information is subject to verification and the land may be subject to police inspection. This does not have to be completed if the land in question is your own.
It is confirmed that as the owner of the land I give my permission for the following
(Name)......................................................................................to use the following firearms ......................................................................................................... to control the following
species .............................................................................. on my property. I am aware this authority may be used to support an application for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate by the person named and recognise that the certificate shall be valid for 5 years. I am also aware that I may indicate any restrictions regarding this authority for the information of the chief officer of police. (Chief officers would wish to be notified if this authority is removed in the future).

1. a) Full name of property:.......................................................................................
2. b) Full postal address: ..........................................................................................
3. c) Contact telephone number(s):................................................................................
4. d) Acreage of property:.........................

Date:

Signature of Owner Print name:





Alan

 

[.30-06]

Thanks for all the considered and constructive replies (and the amusing ones )

I am meeting with my friend tomorrow afternoon so I will go over things with him and help him to formulate a (hopefully) appropriate reply.

To be continued...

 

[Jagdmatch]

This is what the FLO should be using to make any decisions. I would ask for evidence of how he used it.