Fox Control n Vermin

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Davie

Guest
I think that now we have a test for deer management and safe rifle use .It might be time to do something similar for foxes and other vermin after all most of this is now done after dark and that has some other dangers that would need taught. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK i know a lot of deerstalkers also get rid of vermin in there areas.
 

Andy L

Well-Known Member
To be honest as someone who shoots deer and vermin, lamping after dark is often far more risky than stalking will ever be. IF you are not carefull, it is easy to misjudge the angles and range of the quarry. I think that the use of vermin rounds should be law. I am lucky as I have a 55 grain fragmenting round for the .243 that has the same POI as my 100 grain deer round.
That said, I would be interested to know how many people get shot accidently by rifles from stalkers and vermin controllers.
There are already too many tests as it is. All we should have is a course on rifle safety when you first get your fac and then you should be allowed to get on with it! If you cant deer stalk, you won't shoot any but you also will not shoot anyone else!!
 

wadashot

Well-Known Member
As has been said, there are too many tests as it is.

Most people whom shoot vermin on there ground on a regular basis know it like the back of their hand, so know where the back stops are and have generally done a risk assessment on it anyway.

If when i have got new ground for vermin control i have always walked the land well in advance on a few occasions to get familiar with the place, knowing where the backstops are, where any livestock is liable to be, footpaths and buildings etc.
Like you touched on, most deerstalkers do the vermin control there also, so know the ground well. :D

wadas
 

243varmint

Well-Known Member
wadashot said:
As has been said, there are too many tests as it is.

Most people whom shoot vermin on there ground on a regular basis know it like the back of their hand, so know where the back stops are and have generally done a risk assessment on it anyway.

If when i have got new ground for vermin control i have always walked the land well in advance on a few occasions to get familiar with the place, knowing where the backstops are, where any livestock is liable to be, footpaths and buildings etc.
Like you touched on, most deerstalkers do the vermin control there also, so know the ground well. :D

wadas
Totally agree, myself and a mate do a lot of vermin control. A long apprenticeship over about 15 years as a lamp man and chief gate opener on the ground we have. The guy we used to go with, has been on nights for the last 4 years so we do it now.
As you said know your land AND correct quarry identification. Eyes at night can be decieving.

Jonathon
 
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Davie

Guest
Interesting reply and different to what the Deerstalkers answer we (deerstalkers)embrace tests and alot including my self sat (DM) test,s before they were made mandatory . So we now have it as i thought it is more dangerous to lamp than it is to stalk.
While i agree it is important to look round your ground before you lamp the area checking for any areas that would be a risk. But is this really done all the time by every one i think not in fact i know not .If a new farmer gave me a call and i have to get rid of a few foxes at lambing i would be up there and they would be away before you could say bob,s your uncle :lol: .
 

jingzy

Well-Known Member
Andy L said:
That said, I would be interested to know how many people get shot accidently by rifles from stalkers and vermin controllers.
I certainly dont remember much on the news or being in papers, so I would say next to nil.
The only one I remember in recent times was the stalker shot up the a*se by a client who had a round chambered with the rifle pointing forward whilst behind the stalker.....basics.. :oops:
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Night shooting!

It's a good point really as I believe one of the main reasons deer night shooting permits are not granted is because of safety aspects and yet it seems that anyone can go out with a large rifle at night and shoot foxes and other vermin. I'm not sure if another test is required but the FEO should probably clarify between day and night shooting for specific areas of land and probably peolple too! Maybe a probationable period of day-only or until you get an open ticket??
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
Well that is certainly a possibility but, if you are going to have FEO's specify day or night shooting for specific areas of land, probationary periods etc, then should not FEO's have gained the necessary qualification(s) first, before they start making arbitrary decisions about such things.

John
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
JAYB said:
Well that is certainly a possibility but, if you are going to have FEO's specify day or night shooting for specific areas of land, probationary periods etc, then should not FEO's have gained the necessary qualification(s) first, before they start making arbitrary decisions about such things.

John
You're probably right, bearing in mind many FEO's are ex firearms division police officers who have probably never shot a living thing before and know precious little about hunting or the effects of expanding ammunition!! If any had done a DSC 1 (as I'm sure some have) they would know that it teaches very little about shooting safety. Yes you can pass a shooting test but no practical "real" situations. Handing out a certificate to someone who has done a course in a classroom over a few days does not in my mind mean they are safe to handle a high powered rifle- possibly at night! :eek: I much prefer the idea of a period of mentoring for the safety side of things. But then we are off down the "level 2 before you can go out alone" route which is a whole new can of worms which I personally don't wish to open!
 

Gez

Well-Known Member
Re: Night shooting!

Monkey Spanker said:
It's a good point really as I believe one of the main reasons deer night shooting permits are not granted is because of safety aspects and yet it seems that anyone can go out with a large rifle at night and shoot foxes and other vermin. I'm not sure if another test is required but the FEO should probably clarify between day and night shooting for specific areas of land and probably peolple too! Maybe a probationable period of day-only or until you get an open ticket??
I thought the reasons behind not being allowed to shoot deer at night were more to do with deer welfare and not stressing the snimals than the safety of shooting at night.

Gez
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Re: Night shooting!

Gez said:
Monkey Spanker said:
It's a good point really as I believe one of the main reasons deer night shooting permits are not granted is because of safety aspects and yet it seems that anyone can go out with a large rifle at night and shoot foxes and other vermin. I'm not sure if another test is required but the FEO should probably clarify between day and night shooting for specific areas of land and probably peolple too! Maybe a probationable period of day-only or until you get an open ticket??
I thought the reasons behind not being allowed to shoot deer at night were more to do with deer welfare and not stressing the snimals than the safety of shooting at night.

Gez
They are indeed which is why I said one of the main reasons. Identification between sexes, and even species/livestock is not easy at night either. I'm not sure lamping stresses them as it is a recognised and accepted way of census counting. However, shooting at them and sending the rest scattering in the darkness after dazzling them probably does as you suggest.
 

dieseldan

Well-Known Member
bored

Davie,

You could start a fight in an empty house. Must have been a quiet night last night eh?

:rolleyes:
 

Nix Niveus

Well-Known Member
jingzy said:
Andy L said:
That said, I would be interested to know how many people get shot accidently by rifles from stalkers and vermin controllers.
I certainly dont remember much on the news or being in papers, so I would say next to nil.
The only one I remember in recent times was the stalker shot up the a*se by a client who had a round chambered with the rifle pointing forward whilst behind the stalker.....basics.. :oops:
I have come across them from time to time, I suppose one is one too many :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/aug/27/2

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/07/27/i-shot-my-son-dead-i-thought-he-was-a-fox-115875-15783818/
 

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
Nix Niveus said:
I remember both these very well. I can only assume that the prosecutor in the first case knew diddly squat about lamping. Based on the reported Q&A I would have thought the guy would have been toast.

I also recall another reported case of firing at a pair of eyes - and a horse being shot :eek: ?
 
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Davie

Guest
I Think most people will admit that lamping is more dangerous than stalking and that there are times when you will hold the beam on something that glints in the dark a bottle top etc. I placed small reflective squares on trees to deter poachers and i drilled holes in a few stumps places old cats eye inserts into them only to find one had been shot at 3 times by some one thinking it was deer. So while we are on the subject of pushing each and every deerstalker for LEV / It is maybe time to realise that we are only one step away from a full shooting test . It will be the santamonious deerstalker that has caused it all through our we are SPECIAL ATTITUED
 

Gazza

Well-Known Member
I have lamped foxes for years and in my opinion this is no more dangerous than stalking as long as you apply the rules.

Know your ground, know your backstops, only one person shooting and most importantly NEVER EVER squeeze the trigger until you can see the fox in your scope and you know exactly what is behind it.

Shooting over long distances at eyes is just asking for disaster.
 
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Davie

Guest
i WISH EVERY ONE USED THEM RULES MATE BUT ON THE ukvarminting site there are lads taking shots out to 300-500 mtrs now i do a lot of lamping and have a good scope but at them ranges things get a bit hairy.
What i think that should happen is there should be a shooting exam before anyone gets a rifle / shotgun the exam should have a large theory section and a practical safety section.
It would be easy to sort out as every new sgc fac would need to do it no exceptions at all. Cost could be similar to the driving test that would be £30 theory and £50 practical. Then after that you are on your own no need for elitism ;)
 

jingzy

Well-Known Member
6.5,

I completely disagree with you here. You are introducing more red tape into a world where we already have sportsmen in an uproar. The powers that be are already advocating in some areas albeit illegal to have DSC 1 before being allowed a FAC. Even if you did take in a shooting test, that is not going to stop people shooting at 3 to 500 yards if they so choose. They are not stalking :confused:
There are some people on that site doing these things, but the majority are using custom rifles, homeloads and ballistic data to try and ensure a kill. I dare say they will injure some, but there are stalkers out there that also injure their quarry from a closer distance.

We have also just had a thread that was asking us to refrain from having a pop at other forums. I think the best way to deal with this is to become a member on there and have a pop at them on their site. :evil:
 

snowstorm

Well-Known Member
I agree with 65/55 here. Some mandatory basic gun handling/safety training would be a good idea. It does not need content like DSC1. It would not need to cover shot placement for example.

More like how to pull a shotgun from a slip, how to climb a fence with a rifle, how to check a chamber is clear. No more complex than that.

It would be for public safety not animal welfare (the latter I think is a matter for one's conscience to obtain the information you need to shoot an animal well).

There would be lots of independent people/clubs qualified to run say a 1/2 day course like that. It would not be as onerous and expensive as DSC.

It does not guarantee you will be safe, but in the percentages game, it's better than no training at all.

I voluntarily went and did somethign similar to help with my FAC application and I learnt a lot from it.
 

Gazza

Well-Known Member
I totally agree there should be some form of training to a standard profficiency before being granted a SGC or FAC. Whether you go on to do specific courses is your choice.

Stalking/lamping/game shooting etc is not dangerous. It is people who are dangerous. Guns do not kill people.

IMO if you wish to shoot 3 to 500 yards with your custom built rifle, home loads and ballistic data go to a range. Stalking or lamping foxes is not about long range shooting.
 

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