fox while deer stalking

bobt

Well-Known Member
#1
I have a 7mm08 for deer, I never do any foxing unless its with the shotgun, I do not have fox on the ticket for the rifle, but wish to add fox when deer stalking, as the other week one was 100 yds away as we were packing up stalking.

what do the panel think the chances are?



on the same Idea I want to use the 7mm08 for wild boar, which was the reason for swapping from a 243, but the farm I was to use it on had a change of farm manager(my mate) and I lost the land.
 

Roebuck

Well-Known Member
#2
Hello, I have all my stalking rifles on my F.C. for Fox control, whilst stalking! I explained that I can't be expected to tote around 2 rifles in the field. I had no probs with the FEO. Just be genuine and explain your needs and you should have no problem. obviously must have a piece of ground to nominate.
 

Tikka 260

Well-Known Member
#3
Hi

I have approved conditions for fox shooting while deer stalking for both the .260 and for the 7-08, wasnt a problem after explaining the intent, in spite of the ridiculous HO guidance which IMHO is for the guidance of wise men and unfortunately too often the obedience of Fools.

It is worth asking your local FEO anyway.

The 7-08 for Pigs (Boar) works ok with a 150 Gn Federal Power Shok, but I feel is at the low end of the required calibres for that purpose. BUT..... bullet placement will make up for lack of ooomph!

In my experience Pigs run , no matter what you use.... my 2 pennorth FWIW

T260
 
#4
Fox's while stalking

I have fox control/stalking on my rifles with no problem, the Wild Boar isn't a problem If you have ground with them on but in our area without ground of your own you have no chance.

Tikka 260 said

In my experience Pigs run , no matter what you use.... my 2 pennorth FWIW

T260
Try a 375 H & H with a 250 grain swift 'A' frame I find they fall over on the spot.


WD :D
 
#6
Roebuck said
I reckon anything from .308 up will do the job. I think I might use a 180 gn bullet though
I quite agree I see a 140lber fall over last on the spot last week with .308 165grn,
I've also seen one run 70yards with a 200grn 8x68, about 50 yards with a 180grn 300wsm.
I think the bigger the better. We stalk them on foot at night on the edge of deep cover, so the faster they fall over the better for me.
 

bobt

Well-Known Member
#7
I rang the FEO he agreed on the fox while stalking deer, and as long as I can show some land with boar on he will add boar.

I mentioned Croatia where I have been invited to shoot deer/boar and bear, he was ok on deer and boar but thought the bear a bit much :lol:

I explained they are about the size of a red deer with the legs off :)
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#8
Interestingly whilst having an argument about putting boar on my .270 I was recently talking "off the record" to a Firearms Officer about this very problem as I have a .243 which has fox on it and a .270 which doesn't. I wondered what would happen if I shot a fox with my .270 as I had been asked to do by a keeper if I saw one after the chance of deer had passed.

He told me that, as any restriction on quarry and ground is imposed by a Chief Constable as a condition, and is not persuant to any law (unless one requiring certain minimum calibres/ballistics) any breach of these had almost no chance of resulting in a prosecution, even if discovered.

I then said "ah yes, but what about when my FAC comes up for renewal", he strangely wasn't quite so clear on this!

With regard to the boar after a long argument, and after I made him get the HO guidelines and established that there was no reason within these why he should not give me the variation, he agreed to give me boar on the .270 but only if I could provide complete details of the ground and police force so that it could be checked. He said that, as there are no boar in that constabulary area, his Chief Constable "didn't want to be ground breaking on this."

Understandably the stalker on whose ground I was going to shoot did not want his landlord being rung up by various other constabularies wanting details of the ground and boar present and declined to give me sufficent detail, a written invitation from the stalker with contact numbers was not enough. In the end I used the estate rifles which were fine - it was just a point of principle.
 

bambi308

Active Member
#9
i got foxes on my fac for all of my deer rifles right up to 300 win mag even though id hadnt even thought about or asked for it
 

325wsm

Well-Known Member
#10
I have just changed all my rifles usage conditions so they now show 'Pest Control and Sporting Purposes'. This terminology seems to me to cover all eventualities without having to specify Deer, Boar, Fox, Pheasants, Big Cats etc etc.
 

john.d.m

Well-Known Member
#11
Sorry to disappoint you 325, "pest" or "vermin" control on you FAC will NOT cover you for Wild Boar.
As of yet, Wild Boar aren`t classed as anything, a pest or game, so can`t be put in the "pest" bracket, they have to be specified on your FAC
I have had discussions with various firearms depts on this subject ref clients coming to me and NONE will accept that wording for Wild Boar.
Big Cats are a bit of an anomilly too, as, for you to have a species on your ticket it has to be recognised here in the U.K and cats aren`t.
Some firearms depts where saying you could have "Alien Species" on ticket, now that seems to have stopped too.
 

325wsm

Well-Known Member
#12
Firstly Vermin wans’t mentioned as I class vermin as unacceptable. Even Rabbits are not vermin and fox certainly isn't so technically those that shoot the species with a Vermin condition are outside the law. Rabbits are Ground Game and Fox are Small Mammals in law. The Home Office has now added Ground Game to the new Computer programming and recommends it is added to all FACs. I trust yours will include it when next renewed.

One thing to remember is that the Conditions only confine – they do not allow. So you are confined to the species denoted on your FAC rather than able to shoot anything.

Since the Home Office seems to be requiring all Police Authorities to add some conditions – if only the list of rifles and numbers etc as is automatic with the new Computer programming – then 99.9% of folk have conditions on their FAC. Without any you can shoot anything !

I have now had all my rifles conditions changed to show Pest Control and Sporting Purposes. We discussed the matter and I have a letter to say that I can indeed shoot anything within that terminology – legally. Wild Boar if causing crop damage will be a pest control situation but if not may be shot for sport under Sporting Purposes. Dogs worrying sheep may be shot as a pest. Seal culling is considered as Pest Control, A red Stag in Scotland as Sporting Shooting etc etc.

I appreciate the definition would need a court case to set a precedent but since the issuing Police Authority can substantiate my permissions as granted I can not foresee that occurrence in this instance.
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#13
325wsm

I'm not sure that you are correct with regard to wild boar. The Home Office guidance notes to Chief Constables require that boar are a specified quarry on the FAC for the rifle in question, that the rifle is of a minimum calibre (.270) and that boar cannot be included under other "general" definitions.

I think that the only way that you can shoot a wild boar (or a big cat) with a rifle that has not been granted a condition for them is in self defence and that clearly precludes going stalking specifically for them.

I'm also not sure that shooting a sheep worrying dog with a rifle would be entirely legal or safe as the definition of "pest" might be a problem and the chances of using a rifle safely on a sheep worrying dog are quite low.

Having said all this, I refer you to my earlier post in which I was told that the CPS are unlikely to prosecute a breach of a Chief Constable's condition as this is technically not a breach of the law but renewing your FAC having broken one might become more difficult and I for one am not prepared to risk my FAC in being the test case.
 

john.d.m

Well-Known Member
#14
325,
If you have got that letter,seems your ok,
I do have quite a bit of dealings with DEFRA etc ref the boar, and,from what I can get from them so far, (and I have been away for a bit, should be back in U.K in May) they HAVEN`T made a decission on the classification of them, typical "sit on the fence job `til something happens" or the "hope it quietens down and goes away" syndrome, I`m not sure which yet.so, your firearms dept seem to have set a president.
But one thing I am sure of,in the eyes of DEFRA people I have had dealings with is that they do not come in the catagory of pest or vermin.and wouldn`t want to see any shooter be a test case realy and as Paul K says, may win the court case,but hey I wouldn`t be to hopeful of a smooth renewal.
I`m more than happy with my F.A.C,
22-250 for foxes and rabiits.(open)
30-06 for deer,sheep,goats,wild boar,foxes.(open)
458 for deer and boar with soft point ammunition.(open)for that last 7 yrs too.
One thing that does realy bug me is the inconsistency between different firearms depts all over the country,I`m with West Mercia and thay are grt, very understanding and more than helpful,and yet I have had dealings with other depts and it has been a nightmare,some have a "we don`t know about that, so we dont want to know or help" attitude.
They are there to help us and supposedly for our benefit,but not many are that helpful.
What area are you 325?
 

325wsm

Well-Known Member
#15
Paul
The Home Office Guidance is just that Guidance not legislation and may be adhered to or not as the requirements dictate. That is also specifically true of ammo holdings.

John,
I originally had various species denoted on the FAC for different selections of rifles eg Rim, 22CF and others but to ensure all eventualities were covered the FAC became 'cumbersome' and difficult for a local 'Bobby' to easily understand if out of area. The resultant wording is intended to remove that difficulty yet still allow full facility to shoot whatever and wherever I wish.

As previously stated the FAC Conditions restrict you, not allow you so you are confined to the species denoted by that condition. Without a restrictive condition all quarry are available to you irrespective of DEFRA definitions re any individual species.

I appreciate it is always nice to know the areas covered by certain less dictatorial Constabularies but I like to keep myself out of the public eye so please forgive me declining that information publicly.
 
#16
Permissions

John d m

I would like to mention, your situation regaring permissions for your various rifles just goes to illistrate the need for some sort of consitent national approach to licensing.

My situation, was that I had great difficulty in getting a .222 for fox the argument being that I had a .22 rimfire so did not need a .222 and that my 7 x 64 was not suitable for fox. I was able to overcome the .222 argument with the help of BASC after a lot os hassle.

But just to make things worse, I could not add fox to the 7mm or use my .375 or .425 in this country or obtain expanding ammo. However, I added my rifles to my sons certificate as we regularly shoot together and travel abroad hunting. My son who has a .243 of his own can use his rifle and all of my rifles for deer and fox and hold expanding ammo.

How is that for confusion from the same constabulary. I have managed to overcome most of the problems, except that I still cannot use my bigger rifles in this country except on an approved range.

When will someone realise that calibre has little or no relevance, if the user is seen fit and responsible to hold any firearm, a .17 can be just as deadly as a .500 if wrongly used.

The biggest problem we face in getting the right terms and conditions on our certificates is quite simply the more we challenge the police the more problems we face with renewals and variation.

This is a good reason why we must support organisations like the CA and BASC who can represent us at the highest level.
 

325wsm

Well-Known Member
#17
Terry,
I totally agree. It is bad enough that the law changes at the County Border but to have varying laws within a single County.........Well what can you say?

I don't really feel that causing a stink to get what you want is detrimental at renewal in fact for me it has been the opposite. Over the years I have had problems but despite unpleasantness and intervention of BASC renewal has always been OK - in fact easier because I am sure they realise that I shall always try to achieve that which suits my application the best irrespective of their own ideas. I have now built up a good relationship with the department and since there is mutual respect on both sides so the outcome is always jointly satisfactory even if not totally as each of us would wish it to be.

I did ask for a certificate without ANY conditions but although declined some consideration was given - Home Office dictate ultimately winning the day.

Usually there is an acceptable compromise and that is how it should be - we cant have too many folk rushing around with 'Terrorists' on their FAC conditions now can we? :lol:
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#18
I have been waiting on my certificate coming back after renewal, I did not want to have a stab at the wording get it wrong and have to type it again. Anyway it came today, it has two conditions imposed on it, how would you interpret them. I got intrigued by all the do's and don'ts that seemed to be attached to a lot of certificates by various Constabulary's

1) The firearms and ammunition may be used for sporting and pest control and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot and may also be used for target shooting on ranges where a safety certificate for that class of firearm has been issued by the competent authority.


2) The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire any expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorisedby this certificate and use only in connection with: (a) the lawful shooting of deer: (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife: (c) the humane killing of animals: (d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.


What does it prevent me from shooting? I would suggest not a lot, but I have been wrong before.

John
 

325wsm

Well-Known Member
#19
Exactly John.

I suggest at some point you check in writing the extent the local Police consider the wording encompasses all you wish to shoot and ask for a reply in writing. Detail in your letter all the oddball things you may wish to shoot, Mountain Goat, Wallabies, Coypu, Boar, etc etc and then discuss the response (again in writing) if the initial reply is not as you would wish. That was my approach but I received a favourable reply immediately.
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
#20
JAYB said:
I have been waiting on my certificate coming back after renewal, I did not want to have a stab at the wording get it wrong and have to type it again. Anyway it came today, it has two conditions imposed on it, how would you interpret them. I got intrigued by all the do's and don'ts that seemed to be attached to a lot of certificates by various Constabulary's

1) The firearms and ammunition may be used for sporting and pest control and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot and may also be used for target shooting on ranges where a safety certificate for that class of firearm has been issued by the competent authority.


2) The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire any expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibres authorisedby this certificate and use only in connection with: (a) the lawful shooting of deer: (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife: (c) the humane killing of animals: (d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.


What does it prevent me from shooting? I would suggest not a lot, but I have been wrong before.

John
John,

Interestingly the restrictions on your rifle seem very open but the real meat is contained in the restrictions on the use of your ammo - which of course in effect limit the rifle. I would suggest that these are a bit ambiguous but I would have said that boar and any other animal would be included under the definition of "other wildlife" in the clause "management of any estate, other wildlife".

However this contradicts the HO Guidelines which require boar to be specifically mentioned on the FAC - the position is therefore - "I don't know" but I would certainly clarify the situation before stalking boar.

Also you would be covered for boar under conditions c) or d) which may only allow you to dispatch a wounded animal or defend yourself, your dog or livestock if attacked by a boar (or big cat).

j.d.m's point about West Mercia is well made. I used to live in Monmouth in the Gwent Constabulary area and they were so tight on FACs that many people in Monmouth moved the few miles into Herefordshire to get into the West Mercia jurisdiction and then of course took their rifles back into Gwent to use.

325wsm,

You might be right about the HO Guidelines being just that but so many constabularies take them almost as the letter of what they will allow and it would take a brave Chief Constable to ignore the HO Guidelines, for example by allowing the use of a rifle of less than .270 on boar.

What we really need is a consistent application of whatever rules are followed across all constabularies. I really don't see why there is any debate about calibres and numbers of rifles as you can only stalk with one at a time and once you have been cleared as a responsible person to possess a high velocity rifle it really doesn't matter if it is a .17HR or a .458 in terms of public safety. I can see that some ground would be OK for .22LR but not centre fire but once you are into centre fire it's all really irrelevant.
 

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