Go with the FLO or or just say NO?

Territory Hunting

scubadog

Well-Known Member
Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
I have had a SGC for 15 years.
I have also passed my DSC1.
I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

I have spoken to the FLO thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
What are your experiences in saying no?
 
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murrayb

Well-Known Member
I'm sure I will be criticised for pandering to them but, you could try another route. The rifle to only be used for stalking when in the company of an experienced stalker...something like that? As you say you don't mind the mentoring condition so trying to meet them half way is no real problem for you.
 

Tackleberry270

Well-Known Member
Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
I have had a SGC for 15 years.
I have also passed my DSC1.
I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

I have spoken to the FLO at Dorset thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
What are your experiences in saying no?

I have held a firearms certificate in 5 different counties and have had to say no/dig my heels in on plenty of occasions. Basc have also helped on a few of the more tricky ones. So long as you are polite then I would go with everything that they suggest. It won't count against you in future if this is what you are worried about.



..... my first centerfire was a .270 on an open certificate.
 

Tim1

Well-Known Member
I would definitely take the advice of the BASC. In doing so, print out and familiarise yourself with the latest edition of the Guidance Note and if necessary be prepared to present a well worded letter detailing your grievance to the Professional Standards Department of your local force if the FLO stands his ground. Such as approach has been successful for me and friends in the past.

Admittedly, I haven't reviewed all sections of the new Guidance myself yet but I'm fairly confident that mentoring is no longer recognised as a requirement or enforceable condition of being granted a Firearms Certificate.

Kind regards,

Tim
 

SDM

Well-Known Member
You should be asking for an open ticket you've had a shotgun for fifteen years DSC 1 proof of being competent , Your happy to have a mentor what if wants to take you different grounds, Tell them your reasons why you need open ticket draft a letter together explaining your reasons for open ticket get deer boar goat whatever you need added don't let them push you around tell them what you WANT your paying for it SORRY to go on but you have had SGC for 15 years enough said GOOD LUCK :D
 

rabbitter

Well-Known Member
I moved from FAC Air and Rimfire (.22 and .17HMR) to centrefire last year. My FEO didn't feel that I needed a mentoring condition, but was overridden by the FLM. I accepted it, because the wording stated that I had to be accompanied by anyone experienced with a centrefire rifle. I have some good friends (some who shoot the same permissions) who were happy to mentor me. I would not have accepted naming the individuals as that would be too restrictive and unrealistic.

I don't think a bun fight with your local licensing office is helpful, so agree with murrayb in that you meet them halfway. If they are unreasonable, then you obviously will have to battle with them.

Incidentally, I had my condition lifted after just a few months when I could demonstrate some ammo purchase and a letter from my main mentor.

regards


​Ian
 

Jagdmatch

Well-Known Member
My understanding was that Chief Constable Andy Marsh had effectively killed of mentoring conditions in favour of experience or training. Whilst of course you should do what suits you, it could in the long run open the door for voluntary mentoring. You have already done DSC which whilst not the best demonstration of shooting over land safe practice, is better than nothing. What will happen of course is that Police Forces will potentially just issue certificates or demand some form of training evidence as part of being a fit and proper person.
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
I have had a SGC for 15 years.
I have also passed my DSC1.
I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

I have spoken to the FLO at Dorset thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
What are your experiences in saying no?

Stand firm against this sort of nonsense, parliament makes the law in this country not the police.

You are required to provide "good reason" which you have done. When I first decided to go deer stalking I faced this sort of unhelpful attitude from Hampshire Police and after being fobbed off by them I rung the HO and explained what had occurred and asked what legal requirement I had not fulfilled.

Funnily enough shortly afterwards I was contacted by the FEO who came up with a face saving solution for them and the problem was resolved.

atb Tim
 

The tramp

Well-Known Member
Stand firm against this sort of nonsense, parliament makes the law in this country not the police.

You are required to provide "good reason" which you have done. When I first decided to go deer stalking I faced this sort of unhelpful attitude from Hampshire Police and after being fobbed off by them I rung the HO and explained what had occurred and asked what legal requirement I had not fulfilled.

Funnily enough shortly afterwards I was contacted by the FEO who came up with a face saving solution for them and the problem was resolved.

atb Tim

what Tim said.

A 'named' mentor could infringe your human rights, to enjoy your belongings without being so restrictive as to make it unfeasable. A named mentor may not be available when you would like to shoot, thereby stopping you from doing so.
A mentor is fine, just insist on 'a mentor' not 'that mentor' !!

Regards
​Pete
 

Patterdale Terrier

Well-Known Member
You have to take into consideration not everyone lives in a county which interprets the Home Office Guidlines incorrectly. Many of us reside in counties or within policing areas where mentoring is unheard of. Why? because it does not appear in the guidlines and has been invented by Licensing Departments such as Dorset's to confuse the system further. You are either suitable or not, there are no half measures.
The preparation for your application is good but I fear you may not have the required centre fire experience, which may be a bar in this county and others. I think if Dorset interpreted the letter of the law, your application may not be allowed.
If Dorset say it has to be this way or the other, then that is the way it is, whether others agree with it or not.
However the time is right just now to make a challenge. Everyone is confused with new guidelines being published soon, new procedures and policies being decided, so I would be asking the FEO/FLD to explain where the mentoring procedure comes from.
 

paul o'

Well-Known Member
by no means should you bite the hand that feeds you!its ok for basc (i am a member ) to say do this but its you that will put you flo's back up right at the start of your shooting life. your mentor if he feels that you are fit to do so could send the letter in at the end of your seven day outings, you have jumped more hot coals than a new shooter has to in essex inc the dsc1 or any other such outlay that is not manditory for a full bore rifle ! would i send in writeing send in a request No not at this time . as you say you have no real hands on with a rifle, i would do as the flo request's he has your safty in mind and i don't think he is out of line, if say you had a cert already i could see basc point, i also mentor new shooters and can see both sides bear with it, walk and then run ! above all be safe enjoy the stalking all will happen as you move forward just suck up all the bad points , and it will be better in the end stick in there feller .
atb:tiphat:
 

1066kieran

Well-Known Member
I can not believe the number of people on here advising that you should agree to a condtion that flies in the face of the guide lines. Also if your flo gets shirty in the future over just conact BASC again.
 

scubadog

Well-Known Member
i would do as the flo request's he has your safty in mind and i don't think he is out of line, if say you had a cert already i could see basc point, i also mentor new shooters and can see both sides bear with it, walk and then run ! above all be safe enjoy the stalking all will happen as you move forward just suck up all the bad points , and it will be better in the end stick in there feller .
atb:tiphat:

Thing is the FLO putting this restriction actually restricts my chance of learning. By limiting me to one person as a named mentor they are limiting the exposure and education that I could achieve if I was allowed to stalk with people other well experienced stalkers all as part of my learning process.
 

paul o'

Well-Known Member
Sadly basc can only advise and surgest that the force do the the
​right thing but this will not always be done, we all wish the same songs but most get a mix of tunes
 

Tackleberry270

Well-Known Member
Sadly basc can only advise and surgest that the force do the the
​right thing but this will not always be done, we all wish the same songs but most get a mix of tunes

Yes but a point I have made in another thread is that BASC see the overall picture. Certificate holders also have varied interpretations and as such a 'mix of tunes'. BASC help by correcting the wrong interpretations and using there expertise to bring us together on the grey areas so we are all 'singing from the same hymn sheet'. The resulting pressure on firearm departments is far more persuasive.
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
Yes but a point I have made in another thread is that BASC see the overall picture. Certificate holders also have varied interpretations and as such a 'mix of tunes'. BASC help by correcting the wrong interpretations and using there expertise to bring us together on the grey areas so we are all 'singing from the same hymn sheet'. The resulting pressure on firearm departments is far more persuasive.
Not my experience on both occasions that I have had reason to contact BASC.
I have contacted them when I have known things were wrong and all they have done is confirm that whatever I contacted them for was wrong and told me to stand up for myself.
I get the impression that BASC don't want to get too involved with the little things that affect us but only want to tackle big things that will make the press and so make them shine.
There is always the 'ways and means act' that can be used against you if you get a name for yourself as a Barrack Room Lawyer or in plain speak, a trouble maker.
 

Dalua

Well-Known Member
Not my experience on both occasions that I have had reason to contact BASC.
I have contacted them when I have known things were wrong and all they have done is confirm that whatever I contacted them for was wrong and told me to stand up for myself.

Personally, having been advised by BASC in that way also, I think that although a member might want to go to the big organisation with a problem and leave it with them for sorting, the approach described is in the first instance invariably the correct one.

By letting the applicant know what the correct position is and advising him to get on with it himself, the applicant is empowered to improve his own standing with the FLD by being appropriately knowledgable and assertive.

I should add that, having had to put my metaphorical foot down very firmly and politely as advised by BASC once, many years ago, I have had nothing but the usually-expected examplary service from GMP ever since. Not a hint of being badly-treated as a trouble-maker: if anything, an improvement in my relationship with the FLD as a result of my actions.
 
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EMcC

Well-Known Member
Personally, having been advised by BASC in that way also, I think that although a member might want to go to the big organisation with a problem and leave it with them for sorting, the approach described is in the first instance invariably the correct one.By letting the applicant know what the correct position is and advising him to get on with it himself, the applicant is empowered to improve his own standing with the FLD by being appropriately knowledgable and assertive.I should add that, having had to put my metaphorical foot down very firmly and politely as advised by BASC once, many years ago, I have had nothing but the usually-expected examplary service from GMP ever since. Not a hint of being badly-treated as a trouble-maker: if anything, an improvement in my relationship with the FLD as a result of my actions.
Having been in the job and known to my FLO and the previous firearms staff I can assure you they all knew I was aware of all the relevent bits and pieces of legislation, I also made a point of having my copy of the HO Guidance book on the table when visited.
I also advised/showed the new FLO the procedure for reloading and my collection of empty powder kegs and used primers so there was also evidence of my usage !!
My recent problem with the firearms department was, I am sure, because of new staff.
I felt it wouldn't have hurt for a BASC official to have made a polite call and enquired whether they were sticking to only part of the relevent guidance or taking reloaders into consideration, it may have jerked the new staff to have second thoughts.
 

tFl

Well-Known Member
I felt it wouldn't have hurt for a BASC official to have made a polite call and enquired whether they were sticking to only part of the relevent guidance or taking reloaders into consideration, it may have jerked the new staff to have second thoughts.

Mr McC has received correct advice, I suggest he has not followed the advice given, BASC cannot intervene without clear established problem to tackle. BASC does not make endless calls asking “how about granting X Mr or Mrs licensing manager” when there is a clear process for applicants to follow.

No follow process = No police decision = BASC cannot work from that outcome.

Follow process = decision = FAC or refusal = BASC advice on latter.

BASC were unable to provide Dalua with an agreement to his opinions due to the law.
 
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tFl

Well-Known Member
Having been in the job and known to my FLO and the previous firearms staff I can assure you they all knew I was aware of all the relevent bits and pieces of legislation, I also made a point of having my copy of the HO Guidance book on the table when visited.
I also advised/showed the new FLO the procedure for reloading and my collection of empty powder kegs and used primers so there was also evidence of my usage !!
My recent problem with the firearms department was, I am sure, because of new staff.
I felt it wouldn't have hurt for a BASC official to have made a polite call and enquired whether they were sticking to only part of the relevent guidance or taking reloaders into consideration, it may have jerked the new staff to have second thoughts.

Have you written to licensing manager as reccomended? It's your application/decision, if your not happy as the applicant/certificate holder you must write in yourself. That way they can deal with you direct.

If you then think they are being capricious, that is when BASC can help. If you have no good reason for the quantity then you may take it to court or you may simply choose to accept the decision based on the evidence used to refuse you i.e. lack of use.
 
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