Sloppy wording is the goose that laid the golden egg for the legal profession.
Handling an LBP without a slot
- Thread starter Elshad
- Start date
Sloppy wording is the goose that laid the golden egg for the legal profession.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Yes. We had the same at the Imperial War Museum when I was a member of the HBSA. That some items we could handle and some we couldn't. So in strict terms of the law the exhibitor was correct. And when the sh1t hits the proverbial fan it is the strict interpretation that will be used to prosecute.
Although the CPDS would likely apply their own test of "is it (the prosecution) in the public interest" and decide with regard to "de minimis". That the law does not concern itself with trifles. So if a one off, to one person only, at a gun show unlikely. But if to all and everybody then perhaps.
The answer might be to chain them to a table then possession as such does not pass. Which is the commonsense solution.
You can’t be in possession of a section 1 firearm that you do not have authority to possess. There is exception in the act to allow people to be in possession of a club section 1 firearm that the club is approved for. No clubs are approved for section 1 shotguns or LBRs/LBPs so the exemption does not apply. They therefore can’t be held on club certificates or shot by other members of the club.
I doubt they did, the law is pretty clear cut for clubs.
I googled it to find out, i misremembered, it was the RFD who sold them the LBP who got taken to court by the police, the jury found that a Browning Buckmark LBP is a rifle so he was found innocent and the club kept their rifle.
This is the model of rifle:
Browning .22 LR Buckmark Conversion | GunTrader
Browning .22 LR Buckmark Conversion for sale. Contact the seller today via the contact form or phone.
Have you a link to the actual case and the outcome? The buckmark is a bit different in that it starts out as a rifle in the first place so that’s likely why they decided it’s still a rifle, rather than and LBP or LBR.I googled it to find out, i misremembered, it was the RFD who sold them the LBP who got taken to court by the police, the jury found that a Browning Buckmark LBP is a rifle so he was found innocent and the club kept their rifle.
This is the model of rifle:
Browning .22 LR Buckmark Conversion | GunTrader
Browning .22 LR Buckmark Conversion for sale. Contact the seller today via the contact form or phone.www.guntrader.uk
Can't find a link to the actual case, but here's a summary from the law firm, search "Wells" on this page"
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lewisnedas.co.uk
So the case was about a modified buckmark rifle, not about an LBR or LBP.Can't find a link to the actual case, but here's a summary from the law firm, search "Wells" on this page"
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Our top results in defending sexual offences prosecutions from 2009-2011. For specialist sexual offences defence advice contact our Firearms offences lawyers in London. For our latest case successes click here. Retired Gun Dealer Cleared of Serious Firearms Charges September 20, 2011 Laura...
All that is needed is for the word "rifle" to be substutited with "firearm" where yellow, and either deleted or replaced with "target shooting" where green, in the 1988 Act
Well i don't know how exactly they are defined (and neither does the firearms act), but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, and the companies Westlake and Merseyside Armoury who modify them into LBP's advertise it as a "Buckmark long pistol", then in my eyes, i'd say it was a LBP.
But obviously a jury sees it differently to me!
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
If you read the Firearms act it actually doesn’t mention pistols of handguns, save in the context of “air pistols”.
Otherwise it talks about Firearms. It does define a “shotgun” as have a smooth bore of greater than 24” and if it has a magazine, then it can only contain no more than two cartridges, and the magazine must be fixed to the gun and the ammunition must contain at least 5 shot each of no more than .36” in diameter.
Section 5 prohibits
any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, F21. . . a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;
S5 also prohibits self loading or pump action guns other than a smooth bore shotgun of at least 40” long, or a rifle chambered for a 22 rimfire cartridge.
This effectively prohibits the general use and ownership under section 1 of cartridge firing handguns.
There is no mention of different types of section 1 firearms. Section 1 covers any firearm that is not either a shotgun, an air weapon (under 12 ft lbs or 6 ft lbs in case of a pistol) or a covered by section 5 prohibition.
There is no mention in the Firearms Act of long barrelled pistols. A Smith & Wesson with a butt extension and a 30cm barrel and total length of 60cm could be described as a short revolver rifle or a revolver carbine.
For that matter something like a short barreled Bergara B13 is the same length as a LBP and can be just as easily fired single handed like a pistol. Or fir that matter so could a very short chassis and pistol grip bolt action rifle.
Somehow, as in all things firearms there is a whole other layer of bs added over and above what is necessary.
Otherwise it talks about Firearms. It does define a “shotgun” as have a smooth bore of greater than 24” and if it has a magazine, then it can only contain no more than two cartridges, and the magazine must be fixed to the gun and the ammunition must contain at least 5 shot each of no more than .36” in diameter.
Section 5 prohibits
any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, F21. . . a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;
S5 also prohibits self loading or pump action guns other than a smooth bore shotgun of at least 40” long, or a rifle chambered for a 22 rimfire cartridge.
This effectively prohibits the general use and ownership under section 1 of cartridge firing handguns.
There is no mention of different types of section 1 firearms. Section 1 covers any firearm that is not either a shotgun, an air weapon (under 12 ft lbs or 6 ft lbs in case of a pistol) or a covered by section 5 prohibition.
There is no mention in the Firearms Act of long barrelled pistols. A Smith & Wesson with a butt extension and a 30cm barrel and total length of 60cm could be described as a short revolver rifle or a revolver carbine.
For that matter something like a short barreled Bergara B13 is the same length as a LBP and can be just as easily fired single handed like a pistol. Or fir that matter so could a very short chassis and pistol grip bolt action rifle.
Somehow, as in all things firearms there is a whole other layer of bs added over and above what is necessary.
The very point being though, the law firm argued it was still a rifle and convinced the jury as such, because if they had not and it was a long barrelled pistol, an offence would have been committed.
They didn’t even have to convince the jury it was a rifle, they just needed to get enough evidence for the Judge to consider it arguable and so place the burden on the prosecution to show, beyond reasonable doubt, that it was a pistol.
All that decision shows is the jurors in question weren’t sure a converted buckmark rifle was, as a matter of fact, a pistol.
There was a chap shot holding a broken chair leg by the police marksmen bet there was not "slot" open in that report.
Not quite, as there are section 2 shotguns, as you describe and shotguns that either have barrels under 24” or magazines capable of holding more than 2 cartridges or detachable magazines, or a combination of the above, and are section 1 firearms and still shotguns.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Now don’t get me wrong, I think the ban on sports shooting with pistols is a a mistake. FFS Northern Ireland still allows it and that is run by Westminster. So do Chanel Island and the Isle of Mann but they are quite different in governance.
But what is the point of a Long Barrel Pistol? They really are a poor surrogate for a proper handgun. I can see the fun of shooting old vintage muzzle loading pistols with all the ram rods etc. And the chamber conversions on modern revolvers allow to be muzzleloaders shoot like a revolver, albeit take a bit longer to reload. But a Long Barrel Pistol makes as much sense as an Electric Ford Mustang, or worse a beautiful 1960’s V12 Masarati I saw at Goodwood a couple of years that had the engine replaced with an electric motor.
But what is the point of a Long Barrel Pistol? They really are a poor surrogate for a proper handgun. I can see the fun of shooting old vintage muzzle loading pistols with all the ram rods etc. And the chamber conversions on modern revolvers allow to be muzzleloaders shoot like a revolver, albeit take a bit longer to reload. But a Long Barrel Pistol makes as much sense as an Electric Ford Mustang, or worse a beautiful 1960’s V12 Masarati I saw at Goodwood a couple of years that had the engine replaced with an electric motor.
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Sorry, a bit late to this thread but picking up on your comment, for context have you owned or shot a LBR?
Sorry, a bit late to this thread but picking up on your comment, for context have you owned or shot a LBR?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I have handled them, can’t see the point. I have shot plenty of revolvers and pistols over the years - 32 acp, semi auto, 38 special short barrel revolver, 44 Magnum Smith & Wesson, Broomhandled Mauser, 9mm Browning High power, Glocks, 357 Magnum and a duelling type pistol as well as air pistols . I can shoot them well enough, but don’t particularly like them or enjoy them. I can see their utility as a defensive tool. I can see how people enjoy target shooting and the challenge that entails.
As a hunting weapon I would much rather use a shotgun or rifle as appropriate.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
If I had to choose I would far rather shoot a muzzle loading revolver that balances handles and feels like a revolver, albeit a bit slower to reload. A LBP is just an attempt to get around the legislation and is not a class of firearm that has any traction elsewhere in the world as far as I know.
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