How a word evolved

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#1
Having been accused of being full of it in the past I thought it worthy of a little investigation. Read this.

Manure: In the 16th and 17th centuries, everything had to be transported by ship and it was also before commercial fertilizer's invention, so large shipments of manure were common.

It was shipped dry, because in dry form it weighed a lot less than when wet, but once water (at sea) hit it, it not only became heavier, but the process of fermentation began again, of which a by product is methane gas. As the stuff was stored below decks in bundles you can see what could (and did) happen.

Methane began to build up below decks and the first time someone came below at night with a lantern, BOOOOM!

Several ships were destroyed in this manner before it was determined just what was happening

After that, the bundles of manure were always stamped with the term "Ship High In Transit" on them, which meant for the sailors to stow it high enough off the lower decks so that any water that came into the hold would not touch this volatile cargo and start the production of methane.

Thus evolved the term " S.H.I.T " , (Ship High In Transport) which has come down through the centuries and is in use to this very day.

You probably did not know the true history of this word.
Neither did I.
I had always thought it was a shooting term

John
 
D

DaveG

Guest
#2
Bursting your bubble

Sorry to have to burst you bubble john but.................................


The word **** has a long and well-documented history, far older than any large-scale organized sea-trade in northern Europe. Anglo-Saxon leechdom books use scittan in reference to cattle having diarrhea. A Latin text from 1118 refers to "Lues animalium, quæ Anglice Scitta vocatur, Latine autem fluxus interaneorum dici potest."

There are many examples of the verb from the 14th century [e.g., from 1387: þey wolde ... make hem a pitte ... whan þey wolde schite ...; and whanne þey hadde i-schete þey wolde fille þe pitte agen."]. The noun is attested from the 16th century, both in reference to excrement and to contemptible people.

The acronym theory of the origin of **** can't explain the related words in other languages, such as German Scheiss, Dutch schijt, Old Norse skita, and Lithuanian sikti, which come from the same prehistoric root. As far as I know, there's no corresponding acronym to "ship high in transit" in the merchant marine history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Which brings up another point. It's impossible to prove a negative, and I'm not the world's leading expert on shipping, but I have done a great deal of historical research, including detailed examination of ship's manifests going back to the 17th century and studies of trade and tariffs and commerce, and I've never found anyone anywhere shipping manure. People shipped a lot of strange things over long distances (bricks, for instance). But if there's one thing that an all-seeing providence has liberally supplied to every inhabited corner of the globe, it's ****. Who ever transported it often enough that ****-shipping evolved a jargon? Guano -- bird droppings as a source of nitrates -- became an important article of trade in the mid-1800s, but this is much too late for ****, and anyway guano is guano, **** is ****.

A correspondent notes another problem: "I am a sailor. Things go below deck to stay dry ... they don't generally get wet there." Another, a physics teacher, writes, [M]ethane gas would not 'build up' in the hold of a ship. It is lighter than air and in any unsealed space would dissipate upward fast enough that an explosive mixture would not accumulate."

So, the acronym theory for the origin of "****" breaks down because:

* the word itself is a good 1,000 years older than the common use of acronyms;
* the original form of the word (Anglo-Saxon sc-, which regularly evolved into M.E. sh-) does not correspond to the supposed acronym;
* the verb is the original form, the noun derives from it; the acronym supposes the noun came first;
* no one has produced a single instance of this supposed acronym from any old mercantile record or ship's manifest;
* in fact, no one has ever established that there was a custom of shipping manure;
* the word has cognates in many other languages, including ones outside Germanic, for which no acronym theory of origin makes sense;

http://www.etymonline.com/baloney.php

DG
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#3
Oh ****!! - I as all set to blame Beowulf and his mates for spreading too much **** :cry:

John

PS How do you know so much about it, your account is so detailed and fact filled, whereas mine was just, well **** really
 

steyr.308

Well-Known Member
#4
JAYB,

I must admit that DaveG version of events sound more credible. However, I must admit I do rather prefer yours :D Excellent
 

poddle

Well-Known Member
#5
JayB where on earth did you find that from, and why the hell did you believe it?

I reckon you would be an absolute failure on Call My Bluff. :lol:
 

stone

Well-Known Member
#6
Re: Bursting your bubble

DaveG said:
The word **** has a long and well-documented history, far older than any large-scale organized sea-trade in northern Europe. Anglo-Saxon leechdom books use scittan in reference to cattle having diarrhea. A Latin text from 1118 refers to "Lues animalium, quæ Anglice Scitta vocatur, Latine autem fluxus interaneorum dici potest."

There are many examples of the verb from the 14th century [e.g., from 1387: þey wolde ... make hem a pitte ... whan þey wolde schite ...; and whanne þey hadde i-schete þey wolde fille þe pitte agen."]. The noun is attested from the 16th century, both in reference to excrement and to contemptible people.

The acronym theory of the origin of **** can't explain the related words in other languages, such as German Scheiss, Dutch schijt, Old Norse skita, and Lithuanian sikti, which come from the same prehistoric root. As far as I know, there's no corresponding acronym to "ship high in transit" in the merchant marine history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Which brings up another point. It's impossible to prove a negative, and I'm not the world's leading expert on shipping, but I have done a great deal of historical research, including detailed examination of ship's manifests going back to the 17th century and studies of trade and tariffs and commerce, and I've never found anyone anywhere shipping manure. People shipped a lot of strange things over long distances (bricks, for instance). But if there's one thing that an all-seeing providence has liberally supplied to every inhabited corner of the globe, it's ****. Who ever transported it often enough that ****-shipping evolved a jargon? Guano -- bird droppings as a source of nitrates -- became an important article of trade in the mid-1800s, but this is much too late for ****, and anyway guano is guano, **** is ****.

A correspondent notes another problem: "I am a sailor. Things go below deck to stay dry ... they don't generally get wet there." Another, a physics teacher, writes, [M]ethane gas would not 'build up' in the hold of a ship. It is lighter than air and in any unsealed space would dissipate upward fast enough that an explosive mixture would not accumulate."

So, the acronym theory for the origin of "****" breaks down because:

* the word itself is a good 1,000 years older than the common use of acronyms;
* the original form of the word (Anglo-Saxon sc-, which regularly evolved into M.E. sh-) does not correspond to the supposed acronym;
* the verb is the original form, the noun derives from it; the acronym supposes the noun came first;
* no one has produced a single instance of this supposed acronym from any old mercantile record or ship's manifest;
* in fact, no one has ever established that there was a custom of shipping manure;
* the word has cognates in many other languages, including ones outside Germanic, for which no acronym theory of origin makes sense;

http://www.etymonline.com/baloney.php

DG
sorry DaveG
any chance you could shorten it and make it a little more exciting :evil:

JAYB
your version may not be right but did not fall asleep reading it :lol:
 
D

DaveG

Guest
#7
Re: Bursting your bubble

stone said:
DaveG said:
The word **** has a long and well-documented history, far older than any large-scale organized sea-trade in northern Europe. Anglo-Saxon leechdom books use scittan in reference to cattle having diarrhea. A Latin text from 1118 refers to "Lues animalium, quæ Anglice Scitta vocatur, Latine autem fluxus interaneorum dici potest."

There are many examples of the verb from the 14th century [e.g., from 1387: þey wolde ... make hem a pitte ... whan þey wolde schite ...; and whanne þey hadde i-schete þey wolde fille þe pitte agen."]. The noun is attested from the 16th century, both in reference to excrement and to contemptible people.

The acronym theory of the origin of **** can't explain the related words in other languages, such as German Scheiss, Dutch schijt, Old Norse skita, and Lithuanian sikti, which come from the same prehistoric root. As far as I know, there's no corresponding acronym to "ship high in transit" in the merchant marine history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Which brings up another point. It's impossible to prove a negative, and I'm not the world's leading expert on shipping, but I have done a great deal of historical research, including detailed examination of ship's manifests going back to the 17th century and studies of trade and tariffs and commerce, and I've never found anyone anywhere shipping manure. People shipped a lot of strange things over long distances (bricks, for instance). But if there's one thing that an all-seeing providence has liberally supplied to every inhabited corner of the globe, it's ****. Who ever transported it often enough that ****-shipping evolved a jargon? Guano -- bird droppings as a source of nitrates -- became an important article of trade in the mid-1800s, but this is much too late for ****, and anyway guano is guano, **** is ****.

A correspondent notes another problem: "I am a sailor. Things go below deck to stay dry ... they don't generally get wet there." Another, a physics teacher, writes, [M]ethane gas would not 'build up' in the hold of a ship. It is lighter than air and in any unsealed space would dissipate upward fast enough that an explosive mixture would not accumulate."

So, the acronym theory for the origin of "****" breaks down because:

* the word itself is a good 1,000 years older than the common use of acronyms;
* the original form of the word (Anglo-Saxon sc-, which regularly evolved into M.E. sh-) does not correspond to the supposed acronym;
* the verb is the original form, the noun derives from it; the acronym supposes the noun came first;
* no one has produced a single instance of this supposed acronym from any old mercantile record or ship's manifest;
* in fact, no one has ever established that there was a custom of shipping manure;
* the word has cognates in many other languages, including ones outside Germanic, for which no acronym theory of origin makes sense;

http://www.etymonline.com/baloney.php

DG
sorry DaveG
any chance you could shorten it and make it a little more exciting :evil:

JAYB
your version may not be right but did not fall asleep reading it :lol:
Ah! The so often heard wail of the MTV generation. If they have to work at acquiring knowledge and information its unexciting. Is it any wonder that we as a country are getting our arses kick by the far east. :lol: ;)
 

stone

Well-Known Member
#8
do not fear as your saviour is here 8)
i am off the to the far east on tomorrow and i will be packing :evil:
well as far as norfolk thats far enough east for me :lol:
whats MTV generation i think that was before my time? ;) :lol:
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#9
Poddle,

You dozy bugger I did not believe it, I was waiting for Beowulf to wade in with some comment ripping the piddle out of me, then I could have had a bit of fun about matelots and the brown stuff :lol: :lol:

Now it's gone and backfired on me, never mind must try harder.

John
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#12
Yes Mr B told me you two have been having fun, he rang a short while ago.

JAYB. I know the winter nights are long and dark that far north, but you will have to find another hobby :lol: trying to catch people out with a story full of crap :lol: why not try jigsaws :rolleyes:

Hope all is well with you, might be up your way on a flying visit in late Feb.
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
#13
Malc, that will be good if you get up, we can murder some single malt.

Mr B the hint of a hairy chin, I expect there is a big grin in there somewhere, but what is that strange light surrounding you? Is that what they call sunshine? I've heard of that :D

Poddle, we are fortunate to have a photograph of a Beowulf in the same thread. One of the first things you will notice is that the head has been cropped from the photo. This is because sometimes children stray onto the site, and we do not wish to frighten them. It is as you can see it is quite large and and you would not want to get between it and it's food. This is quite obvious, you can tell by the way it is clutching it's packed lunch :eek:

John
 

poddle

Well-Known Member
#14
Yes JayB, very frightening is the photo too. I wonder if i could have the full picture, it would keep children away from the fire place, if placed on the mantlepiece.
 

Fester

Well-Known Member
#16
Mr B
Thats a very nice looking "Hoe" Ooops i meant roe your holding there mate. Well done bud.
Stone had to cut the top of the pic out because the Mr Bs grin was so big it needed another page to fit it on :lol:
 

poddle

Well-Known Member
#17
Looking at the photo,Beowulf 's comment might be

"Jeez look at the Beaver on this one"

Sorry mate, it's just the way your holding it. :lol:
 

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