HSE lead ammo proposals - FAQs and updates

Rewulf

Well-Known Member
The use of lead is as much a poison challis to shooting today as a ballistic advantage. One should never fight a battle that cannot be won , unlike many i get that !
4 years before BASC , without consultation, decided on a lead shot ban for live quarry, the battle WAS won, then 4 years later BASC surrendered for us ?

'In a letter to LAG Chairman, John Swift, The Secretary of State has confirmed that the Food Standards Agency will not be changing its advice on the consumption of game shot with lead ammunition and notes that "the report does not provide evidence of causation linking possible impacts of lead ammunition with sizes of bird populations". In relation to both human health and wildlife the Secretary of State is clear: "the report did not show that the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing current policy; we therefore do not accept your recommendation to ban the use of lead ammunition". The letter also confirms that the LAG process has now ended.'



'In a dramatic intervention by the Czech Republic the European Commission was forced to drop a vote by EU member state representatives on illogical and premature proposals that could have banned the use and possession of lead shot across huge swathes of Europe and the UK in two years’ time.'

'BASC will continue to fight against disproportionate and unsubstantiated restrictions on the use of lead ammunition.

We have been leading this fight for 40 years.'

So Conor , what happened ?
 

enfieldspares

Well-Known Member
So Conor , what happened ?That's easy! The BGA happened! An attempt to justify excessive bags of game of released nomon the justification that what was shot entered the food chain. That it wasn't so much about enjoy shooting as gathering in a crop for human comsumption.See what I've posted earlier:

A need to protect the "big bag boys" and commercial shoots by claiming to justify the putting down of excessive numbers of pheasants from the attempt by Wild Justice to block the release of a "non native species" that all that was shot entered the food chain and it wasn't about the sport but about food production, blah, blah, blah.

So as the major supermarkets apparently wanted non-lead shot game everybody else was thrown under the bus for the benefit it seems of the marketing strategy BGA in which...again I'll repeat...BASC has bank rolled to the tune of £250,000 or so? The BGA Shoot Standards document says this:

BGA Shoot Standards v1
10.2 R It is recommended that lead free shot is used. Where lead shot Is used it is recommended that shoots should be working towards a lead-free policy.
10.3 Any shoot registered as lead free with the BGA must not permit the use of lead ammunition on a shoot day.

So my belief, as said, is this:

That the "big bag boys" those that sell commercial days where the birds are little more than feathered clay pigeons have sought to deflect attention from their excesses by saying that what is shot is "harvested". That it enters the food chain through sale via the British Game Alliance or blah, blah, blah. And to do so to allow it to grace the shelves of X, Y or Z supermarket that it doesn't contain lead shot.

Which is all well and good. But rather than put their own house in order and refuse guest booking unless their clients use non-lead or in worst case to send home mid-drive those caught using lead rather than non-lead these "big bag boys" have thrown everybody else under the bus. The farm shoot where all the game is distributed within the days attendees who do so knowing the issues with lead shot and etc..

So whilst this shameful BASC led debacle where having said in February 2020 that a "voluntary lead ban was needed" may indeed guarantee the continuance of the business model of the "big bag boys" it will be fatal to others such as pigeon shooters, air gun ratting enthusiasts, .410" users and etc. Especially as having led with proposals for its own ban BASC will now be in the ridiculous nonsense of arguing against the HSE proposal of their ban!

Like a sketch from "Yes Minister". That this unqualified ban that HSE has proposed shouldn't go ahead unlike the at the time unqualified ban that BASC proposed. Because be clear when in February 2020 BASC led this call for a voluntary ban it was published with no derogations, exceptions or exemptions proposed. Yet now is BASC saying that there should be derogations, exceptions and exemptions? That they saw fit not to mention two and a half years ago?

Inexpert! Inexcusable! Incompetent! Inept! Incapable!
 
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Bowland blades

Well-Known Member
Then the logic that a Club using a military range may only do so with non toxic bullets yet the military can use lead.
nope, there has to be actions to clean up lead from the Butts etc . In practice this already happens at most " proper " ranges . Its just i doubt the lads will taking it home now and be using it to cast lead rounds
 

Pellet Pinger

Well-Known Member
Today BASC has published a list of FAQs about the Health and Safety Executive proposals to restrict lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland. Click the weblink below for the FAQs and other updates.

www.basc.org.uk/lead/

In summary what is proposed is as follows:
  • ban on the sale of lead shot
  • ban on the use of all types of lead ammunition for live quarry shooting including lead shot, shotgun slugs, lead bullets and airgun pellets
  • ban on the use of lead shot for outdoor target shooting with possible exemptions for licensed athletes at licensed ranges with appropriate environmental protection measures
  • ban on the use of lead bullets and airgun pellets for outdoor target shooting with possible exemptions for shooting at licensed ranges with appropriate environmental protection measures
  • mandatory labelling of the packaging of lead ammunition regarding the hazards and risks of lead.
The proposed transition periods for the above restrictions to take effect would vary from 18 months to five years. Buy-back schemes for lead shot cartridges and rifle ammunition have been proposed.

The FAQs are a first draft and further updates will follow so if you think anything is missing or needs better explanation on the proposals please comment below, DM or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk

It would have been nice to see how exactly how each bullet point would be addressed and vigorously contested including BASC’s own investigations into the impact of lead.
This is make or break for them, if we loose lead completely I cant see how any right minded shooter will ever put money their way again, let alone them having the cheek to say they represent our sport.
 

Liveonce

Well-Known Member
nope, there has to be actions to clean up lead from the Butts etc . In practice this already happens at most " proper " ranges . Its just i doubt the lads will taking it home now and be using it to cast lead rounds

indeed but whilst recovering the military lead bullets they can recover the club lead bullets and the wildlife are no better protected whilst the military use lead.
 

muddy42

Well-Known Member
That the "big bag boys" those that sell commercial days where the birds are little more than feathered clay pigeons have sought to deflect attention from their excesses by saying that what is shot is "harvested". That it enters the food chain through sale via the British Game Alliance or blah, blah, blah. And to do so to allow it to grace the shelves of X, Y or Z supermarket that it doesn't contain lead shot.
This is my theory too.

Furthermore, this approach is doomed to failure. Generally people chose meat based on the taste and price not because of how it died. People prefer chicken which is fattier, more tender, easier to cook, more versatile for recipes etc. From a butcher's perspective, a chicken carcass is larger, can be mass produced, easier to pluck, quality can be tightly controlled etc., all of which means a kilo of chicken will always be cheaper to process. The switch to lead might might calm the conscience of those shooting 1000s of feather clay pigeons (that in theory can now be consumed not wasted) but in reality, I can't see the switch from lead making any difference at all to the actual volume consumed.
 

terrier1

Well-Known Member
I completed the call for evidence, just ignore the questions you are unable to answer, plenty of opportunity to leave comments.
Some of the questions say more about how little accurate data the HSE was unable or unwilling to get.
Yes but the absolute maddening fact is that our so-called shooting organisations are ALL letting this happen. In fact how I see it they are leading the charge to go lead free without any thought about the gun trade or their members. As said before NAIL IN COFFIN.
 
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Old Pultney

Well-Known Member
Is it worth organising a petition on change.org for exemption of small bores and air rifles from lead free? I’ve signed a few on there and they’ve at least been debated by parliament.

Worth a try I feel and would feel like I’m doing something about it then. I’d be happy to organise if someone could put together key facts etc.

And / or drafting a standard email which we could forward to others to send to MP’s.
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
A need to protect the "big bag boys" and commercial shoots by claiming to justify the putting down of excessive numbers of pheasants from the attempt by Wild Justice to block the release of a "non native species" that all that was shot entered the food chain and it wasn't about the sport but about food production, blah, blah, blah.

So as the major supermarkets apparently wanted non-lead shot game
I don’t even think that they did. It is very improbable that the supermarkets initiated any such discussion. What will have happened is that some group of fools in one or several shooting organisations, and possibly one of them was also active in the wholesale food business, will have got together to wonder what they can do to corner a hefty chunk of the value of the game market and / or increase the marketability of game to large buyers. During that thought process, they will have had the brilliant idea of getting other people (us!) to fund the scheme without our consent. Consequently, the BGS was set up. It was funded by BASC making a loan to it. I would hazard a guess that BASC has not written six-figure cheques to any unconnected, independent game-related start up, which raises some questions of propriety. BASC and the BGA then lobbied counterparties to support banning lead-shot game, or shooting with lead. Entirely and wholly for reasons to do with “scientific” evidence, of which none had been published, BASC then decided to reverse its long-standing policy of being opposed to the regulation of lead ammunition. Clearly, the fact that BASC had a financial interest in a company which stood to gain from such a policy does not represent any sort of conflict of interest. It is equally coincidental that directors of that company may have names precisely similar to leading figures at at least two large shooting membership organisations.
ceptions or exemptions proposed. Yet now is BASC saying that there should be derogations, exceptions and exemptions? That they saw fit not to mention two and a half years ago?

Inexpert! Inexcusable! Incompetent! Inept! Incapable!
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
Some very good well written and reasoned posts in this thread so foar


To be fair with wet lands and wildfowl it was different and there was quite a bit of fairly clear studies showing issues with lead shot ingestion, but that was mainly as some birds where actively ingesting them mistaking them for food as they dabbled in the shallows.
Not so on dry land very little if any evidence of much dying due to lead shot ingestion, esp in UK
I don't think many/any really oppose that ban

Honestly, I am not knocking BASC but am seriously asking regards the strategy. The use of lead is as much a poison challis to shooting today as a ballistic advantage. One should never fight a battle that cannot be won , unlike many i get that ! however i am genuinely asking . There is lots of areas full of lead naturally occurring and less than ten shots with a 12 bore will be equal to 500 or more 22 airgun ( and like i say its too big to be taken in as grit). The 410 is rarely used but good for younger and disabled shooters, pest control and is this being presented to the Government as immaterial amounts as towards whats already out there. 22RF again too big for grit essential quiet pest control

While u are right u have to pick ur battles, there is other times when u sometimes know u have to just stand up and be a man and just take the beating, sometimes u would earn more respect from toeing the line when u know fine well wots coming, and even getting up after u have be put down.
Or even if u go down u know and others know u went down swinging and u aren't just a push over, so they might think again in future before pushing u, at moment we're just lap dogs.

I do think long term this was never a battle that would be won, BUT like a few other things ( drs letters for firearms) if nipped in the bud swiftly and firmly early on we may never have go to this postion in the 1st place or it would be further down the line when alternatives were just a bit better developed.

And while i do try not to needlessly bash basc they do bring it on themselves, they set then selmes and market as the 'voice' yet have sleep walked into this and accelerated it and as others have said have left them in a postion that is very hard to argue for exemptions or a NZ approach as they never thought about that why they decided
As far as i'm concerned complete incompetence from start to finish

But 1 thing i will say about basc compared to other orgs, and yes they should be doing more, but u have to look at the staffing levels too.
Each regional basc office will have more staff than the national/main office of most orgs.
The SGA in scotland punch well above their weight and do a lot of good work but i think only have 1-2 full time office staff everything else is done on days of or after they have done a full shift keepering/stalking

My problem with basc is they have the set up, the staffing level to really make a difference but are failing so miserably, i actually reckon they're performing so poorly now they often do more harm than good, which is a terrible thing to say about an org i used to be a member off for 30 odd years and supported




I don't even need a crystal ball to predict as soon as the offical ban comes the antis will be ALL over single use plastic wether wad or even the cartridge itself, at moment only keeping powder dry so a bigger hassle/shorter time frame when they get on top with it, if that doesn't finish shooting they will move on to any impacts of non toxic wether environmental or sustainablity issues

I don't think lead shot itself will be the death knell for driven shooting or stalking as they are 2 of the disciplines where the alternatives really aren't to bad ( ignoring the plastic issue for shotguns)
Its many other hobbies/branches are really going to struggle.

There is some other legislation passed in last wee while and more to come which as yet is not affecting us but a few wee tweaks here and there and with an urban lead government and clueless/anti civil service will never end well for us
 

terrier1

Well-Known Member
By the time that comes around I’ll call it a day me thinks
Yes but that is exactly what the shooting organisations are not seeing. How many people are going to throw the towel in and stop shooting. It as already gone from a five year voluntary ban and with in two years the game dealers are making it lead free this coming season.
 

splash

Well-Known Member
Looking forward to casting copper for my .44-40 🤪
Sabot air rifle ammunition with plastic and steel is obviously less polluting than lead
 

enfieldspares

Well-Known Member
I don't even need a crystal ball to predict as soon as the offical ban comes the antis will be ALL over single use plastic wether wad or even the cartridge itself, at moment only keeping powder dry so a bigger hassle/shorter time frame when they get on top with it, if that doesn't finish shooting they will move on to any impacts of non toxic wether environmental or sustainablity issues
This. 100%. Either a ban or a X or Y pence per item tax on single use plastics that Tory Michael Gove and George Eustice himself proposes elsewhere. All from the Toris who, as we know, are the friends of shooting and it's safe in their hands because once upon a time Boris Johnson had himself photographed holding a dead pheasant.

 

caberslash

Well-Known Member
Why has the elephant in the room not been addressed?

Bans don't work if the majority choose not to comply, making enforcement either impractical/impossible or even counter productive if implementation is found to encourage further non-compliance... CV19 rules anyone? :stir:

With the rate that the UK government does U-turns or abandons ideas and never speak of them again, my level of concern is diminshing by the day.

Hope everyone has stopped burning 'wet wood', it'a banned you know!!! :rofl:
 
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