Immobilon

howa243

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that any animal that has been tranquilised using Immobilon is not able to go into the food chain in this country. However I also believe that this is not the case in the rest of Europe where there is a 30 day withdrawal period on the drug. Does anybody know whether this is true? In addition has anybody eaten venison that has been tranquilised using Immobilon and what, if any, the effects might be? Is this merely a case of the British being overly cautious?
 

tartinjock

Distinguished Member
howa243 said:
My understanding is that any animal that has been tranquilised using Immobilon is not able to go into the food chain in this country.
Your right, there is no withdrawl period


howa243 said:
Is this merely a case of the British being overly cautious?
Probably, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

TJ
 

Andy L

Well-Known Member
I I I I have have have have eaten eaten eaten veniiiiiiiiiison loads loads loads off offff ooffffff times ttttttimes anddddddd itttt hasssssssnnnnnnt done done done done done meeeeeee memee annny harrmmmmm attttt allllllll! :lol:
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that Andy. I thought you were taking the p**s till I read your other posts. :lol: :lol:

Good to hear from you.

Grant
 

jon2

Well-Known Member
I was told by someone who uses it that a small pin head sized amount in the blood stream of a human being would kill them out right.

I had no reason to doubt this but haved always wondered if it is true. I found it amazing that on animals it will knock them out where as on a human it is lethal.
 

morena

Well-Known Member
The dangerous part of immobilon is the etorphine which is 1000x more active than morphine, and which is highly toxic to humans. When we were doing caesareans on red deer always had 2 nurses one to assist and one to watch us both with calculated antidote doses for us in case of accidents. Also when we managed live calves had to give them the antidote to get them breathing, so it crosses the placental barrier. Colostrum was always a problem as we didn't know if it crossed into it. Mind you their dams always ignored them so it was hand rearing. When I worked in RSA 30 days withdrawal but few people ate rhino steaks :) any other animals we managed to kill were always incinerated
morena
 

Trapper

Well-Known Member
Moreno has my vote on this fellas.
At least he knows what he is talking about
Regards TRAPPER
 

doghound

Well-Known Member
I did hear of a hunt kennels thet fed some flesh to hounds that was from an animal that had been received imobilon at some time during its treatment and was supposed to be out of the withdrawel period for incineration/disposal by hunt kennels.

It affected about a dozen hounds, some were absolutely stoned, one or two slept for two days or more and they lost a couple almost straight away. Fortunately it was only one peice of flesh on the yard and the rest of the carcas was incinerated.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
To update this post, I have recently been looking into 'live capture' and am finding acquiring immobilon to be a real problem. My own farm vet does not and will not hold it and two other local ones have said the same. I asked the animal health people to send me a list of vets who can do TB testing to see how many local 'large animal' vets there are and its very few now unfortunately. I have just had a conversation with another vet who says I need to be approved by the home office to hold immobilon.

My understanding is that I need to have the darting equipment on my ticket but nothing additional for the chemical. Does anyone know for sure and can you point to any official sources.
 

Apache

Well-Known Member
Right this is a very difficult area that places both the vet and the person with the dart gun under a lot of scrutiny and there is the potential for people to die if these drugs are used irresponsibly. A Veterinary Surgeon can only prescribe drugs for animals under their care, so your local pet vet can't just supply you with Immobilon as you need it. As an absolute minimum the vet prescribing will have to have visited the area and carried out a clinical assessment of the animals (different to an actual physical examination). The vet's responsibility carries forwards when the drugs are used and if someone died they have a degree of culpability.

The very simple answer is nobody wants the hassle or the risk, so very few vets will prescribe the drugs for you.

The rules we work to are here and set by our professional body - the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons

Guide to Professional Conduct for Veterinary Surgeons - RCVS

Personally if drugs like these are being used I think it should be in vets hands, or at least have a vet in attendance. These are powerful, dangerous sedatives and anaesthetics we are talking about here. 1 drop splashed in your eye can kill you. I'm not being alarmist.
 

pheasant sniper 1

Well-Known Member
I hope this makes sensible and credible reading to those that on a recent thread thought they were going to do a couple of days on a course and then have area supremacy on live darting/capture
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Right this is a very difficult area that places both the vet and the person with the dart gun under a lot of scrutiny and there is the potential for people to die if these drugs are used irresponsibly. A Veterinary Surgeon can only prescribe drugs for animals under their care, so your local pet vet can't just supply you with Immobilon as you need it. As an absolute minimum the vet prescribing will have to have visited the area and carried out a clinical assessment of the animals (different to an actual physical examination). The vet's responsibility carries forwards when the drugs are used and if someone died they have a degree of culpability.

The very simple answer is nobody wants the hassle or the risk, so very few vets will prescribe the drugs for you.

The rules we work to are here and set by our professional body - the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons

Guide to Professional Conduct for Veterinary Surgeons - RCVS

Personally if drugs like these are being used I think it should be in vets hands, or at least have a vet in attendance. These are powerful, dangerous sedatives and anaesthetics we are talking about here. 1 drop splashed in your eye can kill you. I'm not being alarmist.
Thanks for that. I do understand it is potentially lethal and I dont mean to be silly about it but so are firearms and I have those. As far as I can see the risk would be to me and no one else. The vet that I am talking to now is likely to become my farm vet so would be in a position to supply it should they wish.

Do you have any idea about the home office approval issue.
 

Apache

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. I do understand it is potentially lethal and I dont mean to be silly about it but so are firearms and I have those. As far as I can see the risk would be to me and no one else. The vet that I am talking to now is likely to become my farm vet so would be in a position to supply it should they wish.

Do you have any idea about the home office approval issue.
It doesn't matter if the vet is YOUR farm vet. The specific deer (or other animals) you want to dart have to be under the vet's care. The vet prescribes for the particular group of animals. It's not something you can have a bottle of 'in stock'.

As a minimum you need 2 trained people, someone to inject you with the antidote!

I would say Immobilon is far more dangerous than a firearm! A used needle, a spray from pressure in a bottle are all enough to give you a deadly dose. The risk is extended to any people around you, the drug in the dart if you miss etc. To use the firearms analogy, if bullets went off randomly without warning only then would they equal the danger. To make a firearm dangerous requires requires a number of steps that you are unlikely to do all of by accident. If you shoot someone by accident noone is going to drag your FRD to the inquest who sold you the ammunition. I promise if you died (or another) from your irresponsible use of Immobilon the vet would be dragged into the inquest and put through a lot of scrutiny even if they'd adhered to every single point on the list I linked.

I'm not being awkward for the sake of it! Personally I would not prescribe that drug for another to use. Not worth the liability.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Fully understand. However the logic of your arguement is that live capture can/should only be done by vets.
 

Apache

Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea about the home office approval issue.
Missed this point. There is not specific licence needed from the home office, but the drug no longer holds a product licence in this country, it therefore has to be imported. There is some paperwork involved in this, but it's just a formality.
 

Apache

Well-Known Member
Fully understand. However the logic of your arguement is that live capture can/should only be done by vets.
That is my view, but I'm not saying I won't prescribe the drug for you to use as some kind of cartel and to corner the market. I am a vet but don't do live capture.

I am trying to explain to you why a lot of vets don't want to hand you any Immobilon over. Not them just being an arse.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
That is my view, but I'm not saying I won't prescribe the drug for you to use as some kind of cartel and to corner the market. I am a vet but don't do live capture.

I am trying to explain to you why a lot of vets don't want to hand you any Immobilon over. Not them just being an arse.
Thanks for your honesty. As I said I do understand but on welfare grounds I feel a responsibility to look into it. I currently have a stag who has a lovelly pair of slippers on and there are two options. One is to shoot him and the other is to put him to sleep while I cut his toe nails. Not keen on one. Or is doing nothing an option?
 

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