improving traceability of deer carcass

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Fish

Well-Known Member
Do you think in order to try and tackle poaching, the traceability of wild deer carcasses should be stepped up?
For example, making it mandatory for every stalker supplying the food chain to stamp the inside of the rib-cage with their personal stalker number, then any wild carcass without this is illegal. So, say spot checks could be made on pubs, restaurants, game dealers, etc. and if found with a carcass without a stamp they may be prosecuted? This might help stop pubs buying back-door potentially poached venison, helping legitimate stalkers, and the wild venison market.

Just a point I am considering for my dissertation, would be interesting to hear some thoughts.
Thanks.
Eric
 

basil

Distinguished Member
Do you think in order to try and tackle poaching, the traceability of wild deer carcasses should be stepped up?
For example, making it mandatory for every stalker supplying the food chain to stamp the inside of the rib-cage with their personal stalker number, then any wild carcass without this is illegal. So, say spot checks could be made on pubs, restaurants, game dealers, etc. and if found with a carcass without a stamp they may be prosecuted? This might help stop pubs buying back-door potentially poached venison, helping legitimate stalkers, and the wild venison market.

Just a point I am considering for my dissertation, would be interesting to hear some thoughts.
Thanks.
Eric
I would think it`s impossible to prove where any carcase came from plus if a stamp falls into the wrong hands everything goes out the window anyway.
If a pub has two disected carcases in it`s larder how do you prove what part came from which carcase?
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
Well there is a system in place already, which I am sure you are aware of, all carcases must/should be tagged with your personal number, signature, date, where shot, which are to be entered into the public food chain. I use the BDS tags, but then you could and can remove them easily.
Perhaps a plastic ratchet tag with your number embossed on it that cannot be removed unless cut off might be better, which you pay a very small sum (i.e. 20p that goes into deer management) for and are registered under your name, but then you need game dealers to make sure each carcase is tagged and checked ;)

But who knows perhaps they do:-|
 

Wingy

Well-Known Member
I don't think that whatever steps were taken would make much difference, it would only be the honest legitimate stalkers that would comply at an extra cost to them. IMO you will always get poachers and always get people willing to buy illegal venison at a reduced price.
The problem is there are not the funds to support more checks on food establishments and the punishment (if caught) is no deterrent to the poacher.
Wingy
 

6pointer

Well-Known Member
Poaching is a problem but in my opinion to cut it down the supply of venison in to the food chain needs to be made easier. That is to say we the stalkers who are fully qualified can supply local retailers. Making sure that the butchers and hotels get the best possible price.
 

teyhan1

Well-Known Member
The truth about deer, is that the authorities in England don't really give a toss where they come from.
There is a huge gap in any legislation between supplier and end user and although game dealers may be required to take details of sellers, pubs etc are not.
The authorities are only interested that you don't get poisoned in its consumption and lets face it that is far more likely to come from bad cooking as opposed to the deer itself.
I label all my deer that go to the game dealers and they have a food inspector on site. After it is cut up it is then almost untraceable.
It would not be possible to introduce a system of checks without there being huge expenditure or lumping it onto environmental health inspectors at a local level. Given that at present they will only inspect registered game dealers every 3 years or so then I can't see any stamping system being effective.
Sadly the only way to stop poaching is to make venison worth less and drive out the scum by making it not worth their while
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
Any and all procedures that are put in place require financing. The current system of only beasts taken and tagged by trained hunters, DSC1, can go into the food chain so there is a system in place. Any further tightening of security will require enforcing which will have a cost, how will that cost be met? It may be that if any restaurant/eating establishment that has venison on the menu is required to maintain a register containing the tag number, obtainable from the game dealer at time of purchase, would be far easier to Police than a stamp on the carcase.

Difficult one to overcome completely I think.

John
 

highseat6.5

Well-Known Member
If its just a stamp how long before someone is selling stamps ..every carcass now is supposed to be traceable by the hunter number but what ever you do it only works right if everybody is playing by the rules, unfortunately there are always people wanting everything cheap ,not bothered by how or from where it was got as long as its cheap . Greed is a bad adversary ..
 
I label all my deer that go to the game dealers and they have a food inspector on site. After it is cut up it is then almost untraceable.
When you buy meat in a supermarket it is traceable all the way back, I would have thought that is the whole point of a hunters number?
But as we all know, the back door venison trade is difficult to stop, all they need to do is buy a small quantity from a reputable source and provide a receipt, then they can buy from the untrained hunter/poacher and job done.
Cheers
Richard
 

The deer man

Well-Known Member
Spot checks on gamedealers! How could anybody ever believe gamedealers would act illegally or maybe even lamp their own deer?! And as for knowingly accepting illegally poached deer, well ridiculous!

Of course opening up the selling of venison by trained/qualified hunters direct to retailers and consumers may help. There's traceability and if e.g. a pub has venison on it's menu they must be in possession of the 'tag' which is in itself traceable giving any inspector the opportunity to trace the produce all the way back to the supplier and landowner where the deer was originally shot (with permission).
 

teyhan1

Well-Known Member
Perhaps remington on here can give us an insight.

Lets assume that someone brings in a carcass to him.
He takes reg no. etc and hunter has tag on carcass.
The carcass is inspected and passed.
Remington now cuts up the carcass and sells it to a food establishment

Question Remington?
Other than a receipt for sale is there any other way that they would know where the venison came from?
Also if they did have to come back to you, would you know where the venison that was supplied to them came from?
Just questions. Please enlighten us.
 

geordieh

Well-Known Member
Do you think in order to try and tackle poaching, the traceability of wild deer carcasses should be stepped up?
For example, making it mandatory for every stalker supplying the food chain to stamp the inside of the rib-cage with their personal stalker number, then any wild carcass without this is illegal. So, say spot checks could be made on pubs, restaurants, game dealers, etc. and if found with a carcass without a stamp they may be prosecuted? This might help stop pubs buying back-door potentially poached venison, helping legitimate stalkers, and the wild venison market.

Just a point I am considering for my dissertation, would be interesting to hear some thoughts.
Thanks.
Eric

Hi All
Don't we have enough rules regulations and laws without us inventing more for them, perhaps if stalkers could sell direct to pubs hotels and butchers the dealers may start to pay a fairer price.I know a bloke shooting 5-6 deer a week when he goes to the dealer he just gives his brother's hunter number.Same bloke was staked out by drug squad a few years ago he was selling cocaine heroin and cannabis he has been reported to the police, a month later he was given an open ticket.He is still smoking cannabis and probably using coke and he still has an FAC.So if the police do not have the resources to catch him for that, the poaching he does is small fry to them

Geordie
 

swarovski

Well-Known Member
From what ive learnt over the years so say poachers usually eat what they take themselves,, gypsies are the main trouble, am not sure if they sell the carcases they poach, cant say I know any, have chased them off several times, on the same evening aswell.
 

dlz90

Well-Known Member
I don't think that whatever steps were taken would make much difference, it would only be the honest legitimate stalkers that would comply at an extra cost to them. IMO you will always get poachers and always get people willing to buy illegal venison at a reduced price.
The problem is there are not the funds to support more checks on food establishments and the punishment (if caught) is no deterrent to the poacher.
Wingy




Unfortunately this ring's true as the saying goes a padlock was only made to keep an honest man out, but if someone was to come up with something that worked and didn't add more burden to the legitimate guy's that would be the icing on the proverbial cake but it will be a very tough nut to crack if at all.
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
you can't drive the appetite and cost of venison up and not expect a commensurate rise in poaching.

you will never stop poaching until you remove the market (i.e. the buyers) from the equation.

we need a damn good food poisoning scare from poached meat!!
something like that will turn the bulk of market against the risk of buying cheap meat

that and an increased vigilance by stalkers providing food into the food chain to be of the highest quality in shot placement prep and animal condition
Highland Game are already working on a line of products that only the best carcases will be part of. perfect chest shots or neck shot, high quality 3/4 beasts, hind and pre rut stags.

raise our game and the market will continue to demand a higher quality. I have seen the quality of deer coming through from "one of the bigger land managers" and quite frankly it was shocking.
​treat deer like shooting foxes and you will end up with a lot of mince
 

swarovski

Well-Known Member
We have enough problems with foot and mouth, tb, blue tongue, bird flu just to name a few, do you see people not buying meat.no.......! not so long ago we all found out we have been eating horse lasangne, was nice too but it gave me the trots,
 

Fish

Well-Known Member
you can't drive the appetite and cost of venison up and not expect a commensurate rise in poaching.

you will never stop poaching until you remove the market (i.e. the buyers) from the equation.

we need a damn good food poisoning scare from poached meat!!
something like that will turn the bulk of market against the risk of buying cheap meat

that and an increased vigilance by stalkers providing food into the food chain to be of the highest quality in shot placement prep and animal condition
Highland Game are already working on a line of products that only the best carcases will be part of. perfect chest shots or neck shot, high quality 3/4 beasts, hind and pre rut stags.

raise our game and the market will continue to demand a higher quality. I have seen the quality of deer coming through from "one of the bigger land managers" and quite frankly it was shocking.
​treat deer like shooting foxes and you will end up with a lot of mince

So say you start a wild venison assurance scheme, members pay a fee, in return they are subject to a certain level of standards, training and spot checks. They can then put that 'label' on their carcasses, so the consumer or retailer is more confident in a legally sourced product, with higher standards, better welfare, etc. which they can display on their menu/packaging.

It would need large scale backing from the stalking community, which im sure would be impossible, however maybe this would open the door to supermarket wild venison?

As you say, maybe only a food scare would prompt it.

Interesting points mentioned though.
 

Paul 600

Well-Known Member
A national assurance scheme. Would this work? Most of our venison is exported to Europe! Until the public are educated venison will remain a luxury food.

As to carcass traceability perhaps you should ask John West. They can tell you which ship caught it and considering a fish is shared amongst many cans its no small feat!
 
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