Indefensible ! Police Tazer 93 yr Old Man.

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topscots1

Well-Known Member
I think there is a lot more speculation in your reply than in my simple question? I thought the police had guidance to deal with these situations and I would speculate that it wasn't followed?
What guidance, a male armed with a knife officers attended one of which being a taser officer I would imagine that is guidance.

The grey area which you choose to ignore and deem your speculation valid and no one else’s is what happened when they were at the property. Did they beat the male and use a taser to electrocute him knowing they would have to justify its use in the same manner as using a firearm. Or did they attend engage with the male who refused to put the knife down, did they male then preset an immediate threat to either his own life or the life of others and the officers used force to bring an end to the situation.

Given the male was in a room in a wheelchair chair with a knife, my most likely belief is that the male presented a threat to himself and the officers acted within guidance and policy deploying less than lethal measures in the interests of the preservation of life, the males life.

As for the care staff feeling threatened or concerned, not really speculation as the police were called.

As for care staff regularly being assaulted not really speculation either, based on facts known directly to me. Across multiple care facilities, the majority of these with no further police action as the perpetrators do not have capacity.

The picture that two officers turned up battered an old harmless man doing nothing wrong then utilised less than lethal use of force for ***** and giggles seems a little far fetched.

Perhaps the best paid would be to wait and see what the investigation brings to the forefront.
 

Lancaster

Well-Known Member
We will see what comes out after the incident has been investigated.
I find it highly unlikely that the Police would needed to use such force in the event of being confronted by a situation of a disabled old man waving a butter knife around.
Speculation is never a good idea, but I could understand the use of such measures if the person in question had been holding a blade that could be deemed as having lethal potential, and him presenting as being highly likely to cause himself or others serious harm, in this case I would suspect he was intending to harm himself.
Firearms certificate holders are probably amongst the most law abiding sections of the population and I really can't get my head around the anti police rhetoric that seems to rear its head on here at times.
The police have a duty to protect people against themselves if they are putting themselves at risk of harm or endangering their own life.
 

camodog

Well-Known Member
It might have been a steak knife?
Yes, you are quite correct, It may well have been (though unlikely), however I myself would be confident and capable of disarming a 93 yr old, one-legged, wheelchair-bound gentleman, waving whatever type of knife........in my shorts. Two trained, adult and armed policemen, no doubt in stab vests, feeling it necessary to resort to tazer, pepper-spray and baton ? No I don't think so !
 

Frank Homes

Well-Known Member
Didn't think it would be long before the police protection society got on the case.
Look at the BFP archives latest ones are
PC Kent who abused and attacked a youtuber
His partner the same thing
PC Perry Smith, sexual misconduct.
Another PC the week before for sexual misconduct and stalking. Then look at all the investigations and enquiries into the met,
Institutional racism
Officers misleading the enquiries to name just 2.
No wonder the police themselves admit trust of police by the public is at an all time low.
Evidence please of weekly reports local papers passim or shut up.
 

TH4

Well-Known Member
Evidence please of weekly reports local papers passim or shut up.
Told you look at the BFP archives and start by using the names supplied or is that too complicated for you? You really should calm down a bit and read what you post. I would think by your posts that you were once a police officer. Reading your posts I would guess you are one of the ones that was allways looking in the other direction when a colleague crossed the line. I allways wonder why some officers get so upset when anybody points out misconduct in the police force, a misguided sense of loyalty perhaps or a guilty conscience, who knows.
 

Roebuck

Well-Known Member
It s just another one of a catalogue of errors and in some cases criminal
behaviour!There have been numerous caes of police tasering children as young as eleven!Don’t think alot of these present day recruits have enough of the “Right Stuff”’
 

Sharpie

Well-Known Member
Calm down everyone, stop speculating, and frothing with false outrage. After an incident like this it is automatic to put the officers involved under investigation. That by no means indicates that they did anything wrong. Tragic though the whole thing is, it will be properly investigated. The incident happened on June 21, He died on July 13. Whether the cause of death had anything to do with this is also speculation until that is determined.

It is not even clear that the baton was used to try to subdue him, could equally well have simply been drawn to deflect a knife (my speculation). And yes there is bodycam footage of what occurred. As for ridiculous speculation about what sort of a knife did he have, leave that to the enquiry.

Here is how it is being reported, in a measured fashion, by my local press. It, BTW happened in my town. Not just click bait by main newspapers. It, BTW happened in my town, not that that is relevant.

Elderly disabled man who died after Sussex Police taser incident is pictured
Two Sussex Police officers are under criminal investigation for manslaughter following the incident in St Leonards

sussexlive

Donald Burgess, 93, died weeks after being Tasered by police (Image: Family handout)

A picture has been released of a care home resident resident, 93, who died weeks after being Tasered by Sussex Police. The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has launched an investigation into the incident after one officer engaged with the man using PAVA spray and a baton, followed by a second officer who deployed a Taser before he was handcuffed.

The two Sussex Police officers are now under criminal investigation for manslaughter following his death. Sussex Police had received a report that an elderly male resident with dementia had a knife and was threatening staff.

When the police arrived at the care home in St Leonards on June 21, they were shown by staff into a room where the man, who was in a wheelchair and had one leg, was holding a knife.

Following the altercation, Donald Burgess, 93, was taken to hospital following the incident for medical treatment. He remained in hospital where he died on July 13. The IOPC says the investigation comes after a voluntary conduct referral from Sussex Police on June 28.

Witness statements have already been taken as part of the investigation, while the officers' body worn video footage has also been reviewed. The IOPC says the exact cause of death is not yet known.

Both police constables involved have been served gross misconduct notices, along with letters advising them they are under criminal investigation for manslaughter. These actions do not necessarily mean disciplinary proceedings or criminal charges will follow.

IOPC Regional Director Graham Beesley said “I want to express my sympathies to the man’s relatives and those who knew him. We have advised his next-of-kin of our independent investigation and explained the steps we will be taking.

“This will include investigating whether the force used by the two officers against this male, was reasonable, necessary and proportionate in the circumstances and in line with local and national policies, procedures and guidance.”

Sussex Police has released a statement: “We want to express our sympathies to the family and friends of Mr Burgess. Our thoughts remain with them at this difficult time," Assistant Chief Constable Tanya Jones said.

“We are providing every assistance to the IOPC to allow for a thorough investigation and for the family to receive the answers they need.” As the investigation remains ongoing, Sussex Police is unable to provide any further details."


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alberta boy

Well-Known Member
They could have waited until he nodded off ......... I mean , he's 93 , how long would it take . On a serious note , not exactly good PR . No matter the profession , there will always be a few meatheads . They will be dealt with . The majority of the police I know are very professional individuals , you can't paint them all with the same brush .

AB
 

Finch

Well-Known Member
It s just another one of a catalogue of errors and in some cases criminal
behaviour!There have been numerous caes of police tasering children as young as eleven!Don’t think alot of these present day recruits have enough of the “Right Stuff”’
This is the same inclusive, cuddly, woke, police "service" which routinely turn up in what used to be England's capital city in patrol cars defaced with gay rights LGBTDSTZ*$@X... (who cares) rainbows that have been daubed all over them at the tax-payers expense. They mince, march and cavort alongside protesters in street demonstrations which they should be policing instead of endorsing, and they offer tea and hugs to criminal "climate change" activists when they should be arresting them - with truncheons and pepper spray (or indeed rubber bullets) if that is what it takes to ensure civilised society is able to go about its lawful business.

A commentator on GB News tonight, who has the misfortune to live in the arrivals lounge that was once England's capital city, remarked that when a police car arrives at a serious incident, from the appearance of the thing you would expect the occupants to emerge wearing red noses and clown shoes.
These supposed guardians of the peace intervene in playground squabbles between nine year olds which the average dinner lady from the age of grown-up authority which has now passed, would have ably resolved with a thick ear, while knife crime and the murder rates in the ghetto that used to be our capital city are completely out of control. Burglaries, muggings and car-jackings nation-wide are viewed as the spice of life by our blue-lighted social workers, to be indulged with a shrug while the systematic gang-raping of white children by a repugnant community of imported Asian peadophiles goes uninvestigated in case it offends the cultural sensibilities of the rapists.
And now these fat, stupid, "inclusive", superannuated, incapable, divorced-from-reality circus-grade Stazi wannabes who celebrate diversity have allegedly murdered a senile, one-legged nonagenarian in his care home because he waved a butter knife from his wheel chair in his confision. And while this brilliance is being enacted on our behalf and at our expense, no one can get their FAC renewed.
And old man has allegedly been killed by children with more power than brains. It may turjn out to be miss-reporting on a grand scale. But why am I the least surprised I have ever been?
 
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nun_hunter

Well-Known Member
Perhaps they should change their recruitment policy.
Definitely!

Paying better than 75p per hour more than you get working in Aldi as a starting wage would go a long way to being able to pick and choose the best rather than having to take in whatever is left to apply.

Why anyone would join now is beyond me.
 
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Frank Homes

Well-Known Member
Told you look at the BFP archives and start by using the names supplied or is that too complicated for you? You really should calm down a bit and read what you post. I would think by your posts that you were once a police officer. Reading your posts I would guess you are one of the ones that was allways looking in the other direction when a colleague crossed the line. I allways wonder why some officers get so upset when anybody points out misconduct in the police force, a misguided sense of loyalty perhaps or a guilty conscience, who knows.
You've made the claim but can't back it up as usual.
 

nun_hunter

Well-Known Member
Yes, you are quite correct, It may well have been (though unlikely), however I myself would be confident and capable of disarming a 93 yr old, one-legged, wheelchair-bound gentleman, waving whatever type of knife........in my shorts. Two trained, adult and armed policemen, no doubt in stab vests, feeling it necessary to resort to tazer, pepper-spray and baton ? No I don't think so !
Just to clarify that your idea of "trained policemen" may not be what the police consider "trained". Two days a year, one of which being half a day on first aid and the remaining day and a half (about 9 hours total) to cover every aspect of "staff safety" so handcuffing, CS Spray, baton use, take downs, policy and law changes etc is what they consider training.

My 9 year old son who does karate gets more training a year than police officers do.
 

Rasputin

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I do wonder at the world we live in. Firstly how a dementia patient has access to what I presume is a dangerously sharp blade not some aircraft style knife and secondly the tactics used to disarm him.

I am sure on the fullness of time the correct details will be presented but it doesn’t look good for the police officers.

As for those so confident in their abilities to disarm someone with a knife it always makes me laugh how easily it’s perceived to be done I hope you don’t have to ever find out.
 

Jagare

Well-Known Member
As for those so confident in their abilities to disarm someone with a knife it always makes me laugh how easily it’s perceived to be done I hope you don’t have to ever find ouout.
I'm 100% sure I could disarm a senile, one legged ,wheel chair bound 93 year old with no problem. I would use a tactic perhaps unknown or not in the training given to the police. It was taught to us from child hood and its called, common sense.
 

dunwater

Well-Known Member
Yes, you are quite correct, It may well have been (though unlikely), however I myself would be confident and capable of disarming a 93 yr old, one-legged, wheelchair-bound gentleman, waving whatever type of knife........in my shorts. Two trained, adult and armed policemen, no doubt in stab vests, feeling it necessary to resort to tazer, pepper-spray and baton ? No I don't think so !
I was being a tad sarcastic, but maybe it was a stiletto with a 10” blade and he was threatening to self harm by amputating his other leg.
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
They could have waited until he nodded off ......... I mean , he's 93 , how long would it take . On a serious note , not exactly good PR . No matter the profession , there will always be a few meatheads . They will be dealt with . The majority of the police I know are very professional individuals , you can't paint them all with the same brush .

AB

I think it is a lack of 'meat heads' that could be the problem.
I'm almost too young to mind the polis grabbing u into the back of the meat wagon to give u there version of 'on the spot fines', a few of my mates had it regularly, not bad lads but never knew when to stop being cheeky, and in reality it was never that big a hiding they got either, no harm done would of taught most folk a lesson not to do it again.
Never going to end well for them stupid buggers never learnt, and no where near as cheeky as modern youngsters are to the polis.

I think now everyone has to be a graduate they won't have as much idea about stuff like that.
Most of the polis when i was young i don't think any would have degrees, and the fact they have degrees probably means they come form the 'better side of town' so not as good at dealing with the ruff un's

In the past i used to do a bit of bouncing, and i was also a drunken bugger on my time off, but it did mean i could get on well with drunks, 9/10 times could kick a drunk out with a laugh and a joke rather than get hands on as i could relate to it and treated them how i wanted to be kicked out the next time.

I'm 100% sure I could disarm a senile, one legged ,wheel chair bound 93 year old with no problem. I would use a tactic perhaps unknown or not in the training given to the police. It was taught to us from child hood and its called, common sense.

I think/hope i could as well but like u it would be a make it up as u go along and to be honest i'd probably end up getting hurt myself as i would be to scared i might hurt him and possibly underestimate his speed or strength as he is so old.
Fortunately never had to deal with dementia patients ( and to be honest i don't know how folk have the patience for it :tiphat: ) but they do say can be stronger than u think and quite un predictable.

The problem with the polis is they will be terrified of taking the initiative and using some common sense as even if it works they have broke the guidelines and may well face charges just for breaking the guidelines and if it doesnae work they will be right in the brown stuff.

On the face of it it does seem a massive over reaction but i'm also glad i'm not in there shoes either having to deal with it.


I see in the last report it says the polis men have been charged with this and that and misconduct procedures too, if the evidence shows they acted within guidelines will that stay on there record for ever??
 
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