insurance claim for accidental shooting of horse or livestock

Warbucks

Well-Known Member
Most of us have some shooting insurance (through shooting organisation's or where ever, just incase we have an accident
The following is a fictitious scenario, but i would like to ask the membership on here if you think the insurance company would pay up ?

You have a fox shooting permission that is 200 metres square with a row of bushes running "most"of the way up the centre of the field, the field has 4 horse's in it.
The agreement with the land owner is "just send me a text before you come"
You send the text, they text you back ok to come, then turn up 4 hours later "in the dark" spot a fox in the right half of the field with the thermal spotter and night vision, you check to see where the 4 horses are, they are well to the right of the fox and are safely out off the way of your shot, backstop safe, so you get on the n/v ready for the shot, unbeknown to you the land owner has acquired one more horse and forgot to tell you, its been tight against the bush edge on the left half of the field so the thermal hasn't picked it up, you get the n/v crosshairs on the fox, re check where the 4 horse's are---- still safe so you then get ready to take your shot at the fox, just as your pulling the trigger the 5th horse comes into view of the night vision and you hit the horse ?

So in the above fictitious scenario IMO you have taken all reasonable safety precautions ???, do you think the insurance company would pay up ??? ------------i personally don't think they would.
do you know of anyone thats made a successful insurance claim for a shooting accident ?

What's your thought's lads.

Dave (warbucks)

Dave (warbucks)
 

Jon P

Well-Known Member
I think irrespective of how many horses you think are there, no shot should be taken without a good visible backstop, bushes / trees are not a backstop, i prob passed up over 25 deer yesterday due to poor backstops., once you pull the trigger there ain’t no pulling the bullet back.
Would the insurance cover you? Prob not if you said your back stop was a bush.
 

Stalker1962

Well-Known Member
My 2p.

It is all down to whoever pulled the trigger.

Whenever I authorised a "Firearms" job at work, there was a fairly long, standard warning that had to be read out to the team.

I am paraphrasing.

It ended with - "You pull the trigger, it's down to you".

In your 'hypothetical' scenario - do I think that the insurance company would pay out in the circumstances you have described?

No.

Good job it's 'hypothetical' then ain't it...🤭
 

Liveonce

Well-Known Member
Why would anybody who keeps horses want foxes shot, as they keep the rabbits down which are for more of a risk to horses than the fox? Just asking, as your accident would not occur then 😊

yes I would like to think the insurance company would pay out as it is an accident.

true incident in kent a few years back, a fox was shot, the bullet exited the fox at a such an angle it went on to kill a cow. The insurance paid out for the cow. Not me, sadly the person who took the shot, went on to die shortly after in a very tragic accident trying to save their puppy who entered the sea both sadly drowned.
 
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andyk

Well-Known Member
You’d need to read the “hypothetical” insurance contract.

However, Im going to disagree with others.

So long as your shot is only negligent then I would expect an insurer, whose insurance is to cover the negligent use of a firearm, to pay out.

If the insurer wouldn’t, because the shot was negligent, then the policy is entirely worthless.

Any insurance policy only ever pays out when the insured has been at fault (negligent) as they work by giving the insured an indemnity for any damages they are liable to pay. If they aren’t negligent they won’t owe damages and so won’t need insurance.

By analogy, would you expect your car insurer to refuse to pay out because you caused an accident because you failed to see the car in front of you stop? Of course you would.
 

Heym SR20

Well-Known Member
I would not be shooting foxes with a rifle after dark using thermal, unless very very clear on the land and what is in the field. These days there is no knowing whether there is a horse, dog or person in and around where you are shooting.

You can quite safely take a shot in and amongst livestock and / or people, but you have to be very certain of the backstop and that the bullet you are using will either punch through in a straight line, or completely fragment within the fox carcass.

And many dobbins these days are totally spooked by loud bangs, even from a moderated rifle and somebody pocking around the field in the dark. Horses have an amazing ability to damage themselves by bolting and breaking their legs or running into fences. All of which then means you get lots of grief from their owners.
 

shakey jake

Well-Known Member
change horse for child and see what the police think. in your scenario id think you should loose your ticket at the very least, clearly no safe backdrop or restricted field of view.
 

Liveonce

Well-Known Member
Horses in the UK and rifles don't mix, in my experience. Not under any circumstances
Have shot rabbits in horse paddocks for several years, just follow normal safe shooting practices, shot with a friend one will spot and know exactly where the horses are in the paddock. The horses learn to take very little notice of the bang, some will even approach you in the hope you have food for them. Riders like a bomb proof horse not one frightened by an unexpected noise or vehicles passing or a car back firing.
 

Warbucks

Well-Known Member
This is a hypothetical, not for a friend, not accident has happened 100%, i'm just trying to suggest "any" type of shooting accident that could happen, swop the horses for cows, sheep or a ricochet on grass where there is a stone beneath thats turn's the bullet 45 degrees, swop the fox for rabbits, any situation where you feel you have taken reasonable care and its gone wrong
In my opening post example the line of bushes is used to explain why you "cannot see" the fictitious horse, the backstop behind the fox is say a 25 metre grass banking.

My thinking of this thread is that we have shooting insurance that isn't likely to pay in in any event ?

Dave (warbucks)
 

muddy42

Well-Known Member
Can you clarify the area?
- A 200 sqm square is approximately 14 metres wide by 14 metres long. If so the shot was very close to all five horses.
- If you meant a square that is 200 metres wide by 200 metres, that would mean the horse covered a lot of ground in the time it took you to squeeze the trigger?

I am just not comfortable with thermal/nv on a rifle, it feels like accidents waiting to happen.
 

Warbucks

Well-Known Member
200 metres x 200 metres, just as a large enough example.

The 5th horse in this example has been at the wrong side of the bushes for you to see with the thermal, n/v, or for that matter in daylight, all though i do admit that i this situation its unlikely you wouldn't see this horse in daylight if shooting with Both eyes open while using the a normal day scope

Dave (warbucks)
 
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sako85708

Well-Known Member
One of the main reasons I would never buy a thermal scope, you can never be sure of your backstop 100% . Yes with the good old lamp you may get the odd one "unshootable" but experience has taught me to be patient and you end up catching them on a wet dark sh%^ty night !!
 

kes

Well-Known Member
You can't rely on anyone but yourself - not the farmer or the insurance. I would walk the entire permission (because its small) and ensure I knew what was there.
I used to do this when I intended to shoot foxes in particular fields on a dairy farm, as the farmer had cows in odd places and used to let some sheep use his fields occasionally. You will know the land where the dips are which could conceal livestock, sunken tracks, backstops etc so its a matter of whether livestock is present -.
I heard of a guy (haven't we all) who aiming at a fox shot, and as he fired, a cow raised its head from its lying position in a dip and intercepted the bullet - I am glad I haven't had to tell a farmer I have shot his prize coo.
I have always though checked out possible depressions in fields before foxing at night, based on this dubious story.

If the Police hear an outcome like this they will wonder about backstops and suitability - so I avoid having and 'Fluxions in the Force'.
 

Andy seatrout

Well-Known Member
If you shoot something accidentally then that what insurance is for. Of course the insurer would want to understand a number of things; were you on drugs or drunk? We’re you medically impaired? Eyesight? Had you the experience to be shooting in that scenario ( first time out? Or ten years experience?)

I appreciate that your example was at pains to say you had a safe backstop, and the fifth ‘undeclared’ horse entered stage left…. I think insurers would pay out provided you were not reckless.

If they didn’t pay out for a shot horse what about insurance on a driven day if you shot a beater or fellow gun? it would render insurance worthless and make each shooting day a gamble as whether you’d lose all your worldly possessions in a civil claim for damages……

(PS I did see the 200m2 field- you’d struggle not to hit one of five horses in that) 😁👍
 

308tikka

Well-Known Member
Most of us have some shooting insurance (through shooting organisation's or where ever, just incase we have an accident
The following is a fictitious scenario, but i would like to ask the membership on here if you think the insurance company would pay up ?

You have a fox shooting permission that is 200 metres square with a row of bushes running "most"of the way up the centre of the field, the field has 4 horse's in it.
The agreement with the land owner is "just send me a text before you come"
You send the text, they text you back ok to come, then turn up 4 hours later "in the dark" spot a fox in the right half of the field with the thermal spotter and night vision, you check to see where the 4 horses are, they are well to the right of the fox and are safely out off the way of your shot, backstop safe, so you get on the n/v ready for the shot, unbeknown to you the land owner has acquired one more horse and forgot to tell you, its been tight against the bush edge on the left half of the field so the thermal hasn't picked it up, you get the n/v crosshairs on the fox, re check where the 4 horse's are---- still safe so you then get ready to take your shot at the fox, just as your pulling the trigger the 5th horse comes into view of the night vision and you hit the horse ?

So in the above fictitious scenario IMO you have taken all reasonable safety precautions ???, do you think the insurance company would pay up ??? ------------i personally don't think they would.
do you know of anyone thats made a successful insurance claim for a shooting accident ?

What's your thought's lads.

Dave (warbucks)

Dave (warbucks)
Therell be some people hypothetically knocking on the farmers door hypothetically trying to get the hypothetical permission as the miscreant will be hypothetically turfed out on his hypothetical ass!
 
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