IPCC complaint

[dnm26]

So around 8 years ago I get a knock on the door at 2am from a neighbouring police force, not my issuing force.
Long story short an allegation was made against my Mrs by a colleague that she threatened him.
4 beat coppers turned up at 2am due to licenced firearms at address to take my Mrs in for questioning..
Took my Mrs to the police station and wanted to take my guns away.
I explained she had no access to my guns as per my licence conditions, but they still wanted to take them.
They had nothing to document this, none of them had licences for guns or previous experience of them, but they said they were authorised to take mine.
After numerous threats of arrest and them threatening to break into my gun safe to retrieve them, I said I would allow a firearms unit to take them.
They had to request a unit from my issuing force, they were busy and took 3 hours to turn up.
Eventually my guns were removed, and the police left taking my guns to be held at the neighbouring force.
After 8 hours in custody my Mrs was released without charge or any further action as the police investigation found the allegations to be false.

Getting my guns back was not so quick, in fact it took 3 months.
Numerous excuses, officer sick, on holiday, not on shift, but eventually I got them.

5 years ago this came up during my renewal apparently there is a marker against me for having guns removed from the property.
I applied 8 weeks before expiry, my FEO came and interviewed me, no problem licences renewed all within time.

Now this renewal, application in 12 weeks ahead of expiry, immediately an 8 week extension sent out.
2 weeks before this expires I get a very abrupt phone call saying I have to put my guns in with an Rfd.
I wrote to the police explaining the delay was due to their process, was no fault of my own and requested a section 7, no reply.
On the last day of the extension, I had arranged to take my guns to my local Rfd that afternoon, I received a section 7 in the morning post valid for 6 months.
I'm now 4 months in to that section 7 and so far no news.

No allegations were made against me, no charges or further action against my Mrs. The guy at her work made a false allegation when he found out she had opened a harassment and bullying case against him, turns out he then made the allegations to their employer, who stated he would have to report it to the police before they would consider it.

So after all that, my question is do you think I would have any success in going to the IPCC regarding the "marker" that the other police force put against me, to have it removed?

Cheers
Dave...

 

[finnbear270]

What is the paper trail like?

 

[dnm26]

What is the paper trail like?

Hi, the paper trail for my application, or the Mrs's work complaint?
The police will have documented the day they came to take my guns, and they had to get my forces firearms team out to collect them.
Do I have a right to request details of this marker?
Thank you..

 

[tedsalad]

Are you a member of any organisation such as BASC? They have been very active recently.

 

[dnm26]

Yes I'm a Basc member and fieldsports channel member, the legal advice from them said I would have to get to the point they refuse my renewal before they would go anywhere with it..

 

[finnbear270]

Maybe an initial polite letter into the Chief Cons Admin officer, just setting out why you think things should change & ask for their view on it?
Copy in the PCC.

 

[Stalker62]

@dnm26

There is nothing in your story; which indicates any delay in renewing your FAC, is in any way connected to the 'incident' eight years ago.

I am struggling to see what it is you are hoping to achieve.

 

[dnm26]

@dnm26

There is nothing in your story; which indicates any delay in renewing your FAC, is in any way connected to the 'incident' eight years ago.

I am struggling to see what it is you are hoping to achieve.

The abrupt phonecall I had from the firearms dept said "your application is delayed due to the marker against you".
She then went on to say the marker stated I had firearms removed from my property
Apparently this is now under further scrutiny since the incident in Plymouth.
That is the only feedback I have had from the firearms team during this renewal and we are getting on for 9 months in now..

 

[dnm26]

Maybe an initial polite letter into the Chief Cons Admin officer, just setting out why you think things should change & ask for their view on it?
Copy in the PCC.

That's a good idea, thank you..

 

[shakey jake]

You are with harts beds and cambs. The guy in charge used to do terrorist policing. He is an absolute pain the back side. My renewal took 8 months i think. Zero ability to complain or talk to any one. Police crime commisioner was a joke couldnt talk about ongoing issues.
Im not sure what your options are but until they get rid of him we are getting a crappy deal

 

[dnm26]

You are with harts beds and cambs. The guy in charge used to do terrorist policing. He is an absolute pain the back side. My renewal took 8 months i think. Zero ability to complain or talk to any one. Police crime commisioner was a joke couldnt talk about ongoing issues.
Im not sure what your options are but until they get rid of him we are getting a crappy deal

Historically they have always been good to deal with, quick to respond, helpful.
But this time round I'm experiencing exactly what you said, numerous emails to understand what was going on before the section 7, no replies at all.
Just the one phone call that was basically a tough luck mate, you need to put your guns in with an Rfd, when I mentioned section 7 this was when she said about the marker against me in a way that eluded to it being my fault.
It was only after I looked up about section 7, and found a really good Basc document on why and when they should be issued, that I was aware it should apply.
I emailed them, again no reply,.
So I wrote the department head a letter and sent it recorded delivery.
Again no response until the day of the extension expiry when my section 7 arrived in the post..

 

[Greenmist]

Ask for the reason in writing, people tend to choose their replies less flippantly, personally I don't think you're required to cover the cost of an RFD because of their delay, @Conor O'Gorman can you advise please.
Although I agree with @Stalker62 , I don't think you'll gain anything at this stage until you have all the facts

 

[Liveonce]

hopefully as suggested Conor will advise you, probably requesting you call the BASC firearms team as you are a BASC member.
Look positive, you still have your guns, likely they would have removed them again if they were concerned.
Really all you can do is wait, only if they refuse to renew your certificate/s can you then legally appeal.
But hopefully having renewed once five years ago all will be good.

As to correct your police records may be try via the data protection act, as data help must be accurate, but again a question for BASC.

 

[dnm26]

Ask for the reason in writing, people tend to choose their replies less flippantly, personally I don't think you're required to cover the cost of an RFD because of their delay, @Conor O'Gorman can you advise please.
Although I agree with @Stalker62 , I don't think you'll gain anything at this stage until you have all the facts

I will request the information in writing from the chief constable of tbe force that applied the marker and also question its validity.
Trying to get any info from my firearms team has been fruitless so far.

From what I found out on the Basc document regarding the home office guidance, if the delay is down to the individual (late application, incomplete forms, no Doctors cert, etc.) then the responsibility falls on them to ensure the guns are with an Rfd when their licence expires.
If the delay is due to the process, once an application has been received correctly, then the police force should issue a section 7.
As they have done, but they seemed reluctant to offer that.

The issue I have with this all is 5 years ago my Feo clarified this all on a previous successful renewal, now 5 years later I'm going through it all again, but this time with huge delays.

This all stems from a false allegation against my Mrs at her place of work, who has never had access to my guns, and was acquitted within 8 hours once the police could speak to her employer and get the facts.

 

[dnm26]

hopefully as suggested Conor will advise you, probably requesting you call the BASC firearms team as you are a BASC member.
Look positive, you still have your guns, likely they would have removed them again if they were concerned.
Really all you can do is wait, only if they refuse to renew your certificate/s can you then legally appeal.
But hopefully having renewed once five years ago all will be good.

As to correct your police records may be try via the data protection act, as data help must be accurate, but again a question for BASC.

Thank you, the data protection act route may help, but technically they did take my guns.
I was hoping the reason for their removal, the fact I was in no way involved other than being the spouse of the peron the allegations were made against, and the fact that the allegations were proved to be false may be mitigating circumstances.

 

[Stalker62]

So after all that, my question is do you think I would have any success in going to the IPCC regarding the "marker" that the other police force put against me, to have it removed?

The 'marker' is a statement of fact.

You did have your firearms removed. The circumstances of that (irrelevant really), are that the FLD will have to 'review' those circumstances.

How do they review that?

Who knows.

The reality is, it will depend on who is in the FLD, and what has happened locally/nationally recently; to increase the 'risk' averseness of the licensing authorities.

That you have subsequently been 'renewed' should reassure you that all (eventually) will be well.

Much the same for the medical information, that the FLDs now have to view/review.

It all takes time. There is insufficient funding, insufficient staffing and (in my view) patchy training for the folks who are required to make those decisions, that balance the licensing of firearms ownership, and keeping society safe.

 

[Liveonce]

Thank you, the data protection act route may help, but technically they did take my guns.
I was hoping the reason for their removal, the fact I was in no way involved other than being the spouse of the peron the allegations were made against, and the fact that the allegations were proved to be false may be mitigating circumstances.

Understand your view, but they do vet all people living at the address if firearms are stored at that address.
The facts are correct they removed your firearms to remove any risk, the issue is once the allegations were proven to be false the reason for your guns being removed should not play any detrimental part in your renewal.

 

[Apthorpe]

The 'marker' is a statement of fact.

You did have your firearms removed. The circumstances of that (irrelevant really), are that the FLD will have to 'review' those circumstances.

Every 5 years, in perpetuity? This is why public services think they are underfunded or understaffed. This single incident has now been reviewed at least twice and perhaps a third time by now. There is no bloody point to this, except to waste everybody's time and money.

How do they review that?

Who knows.

The reality is, it will depend on who is in the FLD, and what has happened locally/nationally recently; to increase the 'risk' averseness of the licensing authorities.

That you have subsequently been 'renewed' should reassure you that all (eventually) will be well.

Much the same for the medical information, that the FLDs now have to view/review.

It all takes time. There is insufficient funding, insufficient staffing and (in my view) patchy training for the folks who are required to make those decisions, that balance the licensing of firearms ownership, and keeping society safe.

There is perfectly adequate funding and staffing but totally inadequate management and leadership, for so long as this sort of nonsense is continuing.

 

[bryn]

The marker or information report will encompass not only the allegations regarding you wife but also your behaviour when the officers took your guns which by your own admission was not particularly cooperative.
Hsving sight of the information will not contribute to the progression your renewal and will probably confirm what you are already aware of that a false allegation was made about your wife and you were uncooperative.
I suspect the delays are the result of an over worked and understaffed department and nothing more.
Bryn

 

[Greenmist]

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I had an allegation made against me, firearms were removed and the matter was investigated by firearms even though I was released without charge. The matter was mentioned and discussed when I moved to a different area however it has not been mentioned in recent renewals, hopefully its just an overly cautious feo crossing T's and dotting l's.
And as someone has mentioned, members of the household are also vetted, I know of one keeper who had his firearms seized when his waste of space criminal son moved back into the family home.
Think of it from their point of view, if they get it wrong it can cost lives