Lead and opinion

[timbrayford]

The toxic effects of lead are regularly debated on here with some people having widely differing views. So I'm genuinely interested in the thought of those who don't consider lead a problem, as this relates to some training I do.

So what do you think is incorrect about the accepted scientific understanding that:

a) lead is poisonous, disrupting many body processes
b) it's a cumulative poison with no known safe minimum
c) the effects are particularly bad in the young
d) that lead particles occur in muscle in animals shot with lead bullets away from the actual wound
e) that people who regularly eat meat from animals shot with lead have higher lead levels in their body
f) that birds are highly sensitive to lead

Note - no comment on the accuracy of lead or the knock down, this is purely lead's biological impact

The vital bit of information that you appear to be missing is that without question, in common with numerous other environmental toxins, there is a safe level of lead in body tissues just that the medical profession has no acceptable (to them) test to determine what this level is. Hence the extremist precautionary utterances from them, which I for one take with the same large pinch of salt as I did with beef on the bone, radioactive woodcock, etc. etc.

 

[LuckyEddie]

As someone who used to melt lead ingots as part of a manufacturing process using oxy/acet torch around 1/4 ton at a time we had regular health surveillance
every 6 month (blood tests) I personally never had raised pb levels
come to think about it non of the other fitters did either so I find the argument about lead as a means to just ban / curtail the use of lead which will help in reducing shooting sports imo

You reminded me that my father showed me how to fashion lead weights for fishing when I was about 9 or 10.

 

[AGR]

so I find the argument about lead as a means to just ban / curtail the use of lead which will help in reducing shooting sports imo

This will happen when forestry companies refuse to deal with timber which contains steel shot. I was told yesterday, "we know when the blade hits a lead pellet because there's a tiny spark, but we carry on cutting. If we hit steel shot, we have to sharpen".
He was too busy to discuss specifics, but I was told that I definitely could not use steel shot in their woodland.

 

[Smellydog]

I bet that if a study was done going back centuries now as to what killed sportsmen, hunter who ever that used lead ammunition nearly every other form of death inducing illness other than lead poisoning would triumph.

 

[Heym SR20]

One of my clients is developing cancer treatments that involve removing heavy metals including lead from the blood. First products have received orphan drug status for clinical use to treat leukaemia. Lots of work going on on small cell lung, pancreatic and other nasty cancers. Early therapeutic use on patients with terminal secondary cancer - most 18 months later are showing little signs of the disease.

Key points

1) current generations typically 5 times the heavy metal load in their body compared to two or three generations ago. Most is through long term industrial contamination with heavy metals being in our soils, hence transferred to food crops. It is concentrated in seeds, thus in our bread, beer and many other common food stuffs.

Then there is direct exposure from exhaust, old lead paint, water pipes etc (although this is much less than before). Lead dust is taken into the lungs.

Lead is readily bioavailable hence will absorbed from form ingested fragments. Stomach acids are similar to ph to the acid in lead acid batteries, so lead does dissolve in stomach acids.

Method of action, or heavy metals mess you up. The key protein is p53. This is produced in all of us and animals and birds. It is a fundamental part of the immune system and it mops up unusual proteins such as from cancerous cells or viruses, bacterias etc.

It works by wrapping itself around the stray protein and then transporting it out via normal waste processes.

It needs very low levels of heavy metals in blood to have a major effect.

Until recently the medical professionals have not bothered looking at heavy metal loads in the blood. The levels at which p53 is affected is well below that which is considered to be toxic.

The powers that be have known about lead toxicity for a very long time. I have seen reports as part of the research which reference concerns being raised in the first World War of the the lead in ammunition on the health of troops and ammunition workers. Lead dust has long been known about on indoor ranges. There is a massive problem in US cities with lead water pipes still in use for city wide water distribution - mostly in much poorer areas. But nobody wants to do the work to look at the damage because of liability.

 

[Heym SR20]

Lead is a heavy metal

It is considered a ‘cumulative’ poison to us and other wildlife

That means that prolonged, or frequent exposure can result in Pb levels increasing in our tissues

As a cumulative poison, it also means that predators will ingest lead already stored in the tissues of those they eat

Chronic (long term) exposure to Lead causes damage to peripheral nerves and the central nervous system

The main ‘routes of body entry’ are - in increasing risk

Skin absorption
Ingestion
Inhalation
Injection

Organic lead is of greater risk than the metal (inorganic lead)

Lead tetra ethyl - an ingredient of the old 4 star petrol is an example of organic lead

Lead fume is a greater problem than lead in solid form

There is plenty of evidence of the toxicity of lead

We have the Lead at Work Regs to control risk from lead in the workplace -,they mandate medical surveillance for workers exposed to lead. This involves taking blood and urine samples periodically

As a cumulative poison it is also a risk factor in the environment

Lead pellets from shot, especially around waterways, is something worth controlling

As for humans

Eating birds REGULARLY that are shot with lead pellets could result in raised blood lead levels - potentially leading to harm

Consuming venison shot by lead bullets could similarly lead to inorganic lead consumption- leading in turn to raised lead blood levels

Now comes the political slight of hand that the activist hopes you will miss

There is No evidence of harm or raised Pb blood levels from eating venison

The evidence is just not there

Try

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And

Hunting with lead: Association between blood lead levels and wild game consumption

Wild game hunting is a popular activity in many regions of the United States. Recently, the presence of lead fragments in wild game meat, presumably f…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Apthorpe]

One of my clients is developing cancer treatments that involve removing heavy metals including lead from the blood. First products have received orphan drug status for clinical use to treat leukaemia. Lots of work going on on small cell lung, pancreatic and other nasty cancers. Early therapeutic use on patients with terminal secondary cancer - most 18 months later are showing little signs of the disease.

Presumably the large majority of the patients are shooters?

Key points

1) current generations typically 5 times the heavy metal load in their body compared to two or three generations ago.

Studies have found the opposite - people living 100 years ago had 3 (Fe) to 20 (Pb and As) times as much heavy metal in their blood. I'd regard the claim that the current generation is more highly contaminated as being extremely spurious.

Most is through long term industrial contamination with heavy metals being in our soils, hence transferred to food crops. It is concentrated in seeds, thus in our bread, beer and many other common food stuffs.

Then there is direct exposure from exhaust, old lead paint, water pipes etc (although this is much less than before). Lead dust is taken into the lungs.

Lead is readily bioavailable hence will absorbed from form ingested fragments. Stomach acids are similar to ph to the acid in lead acid batteries, so lead does dissolve in stomach acids.

This sentence is flat out untrue. Anyone with school level chemistry would know this. The pH of battery acid is about 0.8 and stomach acid is 1.5-2. Being a negative logarithmic scale, this means that stomach acid is about 5 to 15 times weaker than battery acid. Not only that but the lead doesn't dissolve in lead-acid batteries either.

Method of action, or heavy metals mess you up. The key protein is p53. This is produced in all of us and animals and birds. It is a fundamental part of the immune system and it mops up unusual proteins such as from cancerous cells or viruses, bacterias etc.

I don't know where this came from but it also is not correct. p53 is a regulatory protein acting inside the nucleus and is not a fundamental part of the immune system at all. It acts to inhibit DNA mutations and suppress cancer formation. It works by causing apoptosis - programmed cell death - of severely affected cells(at the very simplest).

It works by wrapping itself around the stray protein and then transporting it out via normal waste processes.

This is incoherent. Although to paraphrase to the extent of making it intelligible in a social media post is extremely ambitious.

It needs very low levels of heavy metals in blood to have a major effect.

Until recently the medical professionals have not bothered looking at heavy metal loads in the blood.

???? Seriously?

The levels at which p53 is affected is well below that which is considered to be toxic.

The powers that be have known about lead toxicity for a very long time. I have seen reports as part of the research which reference concerns being raised in the first World War of the the lead in ammunition on the health of troops and ammunition workers.

We all know that WW1 H&S was not comparable to today and the urgency of war meant workers were contaminated at exceptional levels even by the standards of the day.

Lead dust has long been known about on indoor ranges. There is a massive problem in US cities with lead water pipes still in use for city wide water distribution - mostly in much poorer areas.

Not really. It isn't an issue in hard water areas and in other areas, the water is treated to prevent lead dissolving into the water. There was a mass hysteria event surrounding contaminated water in Flint, Michigan which was caused by human negligence.

But nobody wants to do the work to look at the damage because of liability.

And yet there is no appreciable harm at all caused by the use of lead ammunition.

 

[Smellydog]

One of my clients is developing cancer treatments that involve removing heavy metals including lead from the blood. First products have received orphan drug status for clinical use to treat leukaemia. Lots of work going on on small cell lung, pancreatic and other nasty cancers. Early therapeutic use on patients with terminal secondary cancer - most 18 months later are showing little signs of the disease.

Key points

1) current generations typically 5 times the heavy metal load in their body compared to two or three generations ago. Most is through long term industrial contamination with heavy metals being in our soils, hence transferred to food crops. It is concentrated in seeds, thus in our bread, beer and many other common food stuffs.

Then there is direct exposure from exhaust, old lead paint, water pipes etc (although this is much less than before). Lead dust is taken into the lungs.

Lead is readily bioavailable hence will absorbed from form ingested fragments. Stomach acids are similar to ph to the acid in lead acid batteries, so lead does dissolve in stomach acids.

Method of action, or heavy metals mess you up. The key protein is p53. This is produced in all of us and animals and birds. It is a fundamental part of the immune system and it mops up unusual proteins such as from cancerous cells or viruses, bacterias etc.

It works by wrapping itself around the stray protein and then transporting it out via normal waste processes.

It needs very low levels of heavy metals in blood to have a major effect.

Until recently the medical professionals have not bothered looking at heavy metal loads in the blood. The levels at which p53 is affected is well below that which is considered to be toxic.

The powers that be have known about lead toxicity for a very long time. I have seen reports as part of the research which reference concerns being raised in the first World War of the the lead in ammunition on the health of troops and ammunition workers. Lead dust has long been known about on indoor ranges. There is a massive problem in US cities with lead water pipes still in use for city wide water distribution - mostly in much poorer areas. But nobody wants to do the work to look at the damage because of liability.

So are you trying to suggest that banning lead will cure all nasty cancers ?

 

[Pete6.5]

So are you trying to suggest that banning lead will cure all nasty cancers ?

It's not just about the hunter. You can shoot your venison with a radioactive bullet from a gun dating back to when guns were invented and most of us won't care. This is about culling deer and on mass putting it in to the food chain and most people if asked would not what lead in their food.
A good chunk of stalkers use the fact that they produce a healthy product that can be sold to the public as a reason to do it rather than just sport and killing for the fun of it after they have filled their freezers.
I guess this is a pointless discussion with you as I have a picture in my mind that you enjoy shooting with vintage guns.
(My picture might be way off as I've never met you and I will say I have no issues with using vintage rifles/shotguns if it floats your boat. I'm sure it's very enjoyable using them)

 

[palmer_mike]

It’s a myth that the fear of lead contamination puts hardly anyone off eating game.

 

[Heym SR20]

So are you trying to suggest that banning lead will cure all nasty cancers ?

No it won’t. Cells will always mutate, especially as we get older. But the body has a natural way of dealing with these. Pollution of any type, especially heavy metals, once they get into your are not conducive to long term health.

What I am saying is that as conservators and lovers of nature and the great outdoors, we should NOT continue putting a very well known substance into the food chain of man, animals or birds and continue spread large amounts of lead over our fields and country side.

There are perfectly viable alternatives for shooting animals and birds. There are a few guns for which lead ammunition are only the viable option at the moment. These are mostly old and historic guns and should be shot sparingly.

And I have the same views on plastics and pretty much any other waste that we seem as a species just to want to dump onto our little planet. We would not dump it in our living rooms but we seem perfectly capable of throwing it out of the window so its on our land rivers and seas.

Edit. As for muzzleloaders a quick search on American duck hunting forums there is plenty of discussion on using steel shot with fibre shot cups for hunting waterfowl.

 

[AGR]

No it won’t. What I am saying is that as conservators and lovers of nature and the great outdoors, we should NOT continue putting a very well known substance into the food chain of man, animals or birds and continue spread large amounts of lead over our fields and country side.

NOT?

 

[Heym SR20]

NOT?

Now Edited

 

[Smellydog]

No it won’t. Cells will always mutate, especially as we get older. But the body has a natural way of dealing with these. Pollution of any type, especially heavy metals, once they get into your are not conducive to long term health.

What I am saying is that as conservators and lovers of nature and the great outdoors, we should NOT continue putting a very well known substance into the food chain of man, animals or birds and continue spread large amounts of lead over our fields and country side.

There are perfectly viable alternatives for shooting animals and birds. There are a few guns for which lead ammunition are only the viable option at the moment. These are mostly old and historic guns and should be shot sparingly.

And I have the same views on plastics and pretty much any other waste that we seem as a species just to want to dump onto our little planet. We would not dump it in our living rooms but we seem perfectly capable of throwing it out of the window so its on our land rivers and seas.

Edit. As for muzzleloaders a quick search on American duck hunting forums there is plenty of discussion on using steel shot with fibre shot cups for hunting waterfowl.

When plastic goes I might concede but not before. Plastic harm the unborn grandchild before it's even conceived! Lead does not do that.

 

[Smellydog]

This is about culling deer and on mass putting it in to the food chain and most people if asked would not what lead in their food.

Plenty folk take game from me, no lead issues. And as there is no evidence of people becoming sick from game shot with lead.....
All of a sudden it's an issue. Not because of hunters but because of the antis setting a narrative.
That is not a solid foundation for change.

In fact it's like the current labour government. "It's time for change" they spouted and look what a crock that has turned into!

If someone wants to use alternatives then crack on but please please don't force others to do the same.

 

[Heym SR20]

When plastic goes I might concede but not before. Plastic harm the unborn grandchild before it's even conceived! Lead does not do that.

I would absolutely agree your comments about plastic, but lead is pretty harmful as well to pregnant women and young children - it’s particularly harmful to the development of young brains.

Bear in mind that the unborn in the womb is nourished from the blood of the mother, so any toxins in the mothers end up in the embryo and then pheotus. .

Have a read of

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

 

[Smellydog]

I would absolutely agree your comments about plastic, but lead is pretty harmful as well to pregnant women and young children - it’s particularly harmful to the development of young brains.

Bear in mind that the unborn in the womb is nourished from the blood of the mother, so any toxins in the mothers end up in the embryo and then pheotus. .

Have a read of

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

Yes I know but the exposure to plastic is far far greater but somehow overlooked, probably because it's not used to kill fluffy animals!

 

[Heym SR20]

Yes I know but the exposure to plastic is far far greater but somehow overlooked, probably because it's not used to kill fluffy animals!

I absolutely agree with you on this. Couple of other close friends are working on microplastics- they have no had several in Nature etc. The plastic particles in ovaries and sperm. And they can pass through cell membranes. And we use plastic packing on all our food stuffs.

There are too many vested interests. Plastic is cheap, and prevents food from growing harmful bacteria. It allows processed food to be delivered cheaply to the masses. And the plastic manufacturers have got their products into the regulations. No reason why meat should not be transported as a carcass to the butcher whole. Then cut up and wrapped in paper for the customer. It is much cheaper to process in factory and vacuum pack it in plastic.

But is really cheaper - when you add all the negative effects?

 

[Pete6.5]

Plenty folk take game from me, no lead issues. And as there is no evidence of people becoming sick from game shot with lead.....
All of a sudden it's an issue. Not because of hunters but because of the antis setting a narrative.
That is not a solid foundation for change.

In fact it's like the current labour government. "It's time for change" they spouted and look what a crock that has turned into!

If someone wants to use alternatives then crack on but please please don't force others to do the same.

I'm sorry but change has always happened and always will.

 

[Smellydog]

I'm sorry but change has always happened and always will.

That is true.
It's just not always for the better....