Interesting post Davie, and one for which I don't have any answers.
Presumably you have some predictions? What do you feel will be (or should be) SNH's verdict?
Regards,
Mike.
level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.
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Interesting post Davie, and one for which I don't have any answers.
Presumably you have some predictions? What do you feel will be (or should be) SNH's verdict?
Regards,
Mike.
That's for another post Mike but we are filling the Ammo boxes nicely for the ones that wanted a strict assessment system.
Cheers Davie,
Its gonna be an interesting year anyway for all things Scottish!!! … Watch this space!!
Regards,
Mike.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't expect you to agree Mike, after all it makes up a part of your living.
I have done both, so i know what is the more difficult deer to stalk.
Regarding losing a deer, i am afraid that's all part of stalking, sadly on occasion it happens, hopefully with a good dog and friendly neighbours the incidences can be reduced.
Cheers
Richard
Seems a bit of a nonchalant response to me Richard, sorry! … Losing/Wounding a deer might be part of stalking, but as part of training/testing then I'm of the opinion that we should endeavour to eliminate as much as possible the risk of a wounded beast remaining un-recovered. Dogs and friendly neighbours are all well and good and MAY allow a wounded deer to be recovered, but a deer fence is as good as it gets when it comes to 'containing' the situation, and ensuring that the animal IS able to be dispatched. After all part of the DSC2 does in fact cover the follow-up of a wounded animal.
At the end of the day, I think the BDS launching this option is a good thing. It doesn't alter the way a DSC2 candidate operates, he/she still has to do everything that they would have to do in the wild.
Also, it is important that people understand that neither the BDS deer park option, nor indeed Jelen's DSC2 initiative offer any sort of guarantee that the candidate will get their DSC2 ticket. It simply takes the uncertainty and rip-off factor out of it!
I'd hazard a good guess that many (by no means all) people criticising the BDS deer park option are already holders of DSC2, and I dare say some (but by no means all) are unscrupulous AW's who fear the cash-cow 'client pool' may dry up for them! … Sorry to be harsh, but I think I'm not far off the truth in many cases.
Both the BDS DSC2 option, and the Jelen DSC2 Initiative offer clients an opportunity to achieve their witnessed stalks/culls, rather than ditching £1200+ in a fruitless search for deer that may not even be there.
I also wouldn't mind betting that the majority of the naysayers who now have DSC2 would have jumped at this opportunity had it been available to them at the time … IMO
… And for those about to do DSC2, don't think its just a walk in the park …….. Oooh, think I just made a funny!!
Regards,
Mike.
Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155
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SussexFallow
Well-Known Member
Good post fella . Knowing the AWs in question standards will be very high and its a great opportunity for competent stalkers to get level 2 if time is a premium.
Atb steve
6pointer
Well-Known Member
Mike they will need to put a new question in what should you do if the animal runs off in to cover
Wait ten mins and go look
Get out your trained dog and look
Or walk to the fence and just pick it up.
PS mike you might not be correct I know many many stalkers who would not dream of stalking in a deer farm / park. I have done it but I was getting some of the venison money lol.
Wait ten mins and go look
Get out your trained dog and look
Or walk to the fence and just pick it up.
PS mike you might not be correct I know many many stalkers who would not dream of stalking in a deer farm / park. I have done it but I was getting some of the venison money lol.
Hi Davie,
I'm really puzzled here. Do you know someone who's 'stalked' deer on a deer farm??? … or shot one or more of their witnessed culls on a deer farm??? … There's a common theme in your posts and 'DEER FARM has been mentioned several times now.
Has anybody really shot FARMED deer as part of their DSC2??? … Honestly???
I don't believe it myself, but I'd be very interested to know if its true!
Regards,
Mike
Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155
6pointer
Well-Known Member
Know I live in Scotland we don't use deer farms for our lev 2 mike we stalk deer. But there is a farm I know just 5 mins up the road I will start to use if I get the ok from the DMQ mob.
ps still waiting for the definitive difference of Farm and Park deer is it genetic
ps still waiting for the definitive difference of Farm and Park deer is it genetic
Overlay
Well-Known Member
I completed my level 1 at Wadhurst, during that time I was fortunate to meet a lot of the guys and they are all 100% and they eat and sleep Deer 24/7, very experienced and this "new" venture will most certainly be a excellent step to installing a benchmark for standards in L2 portfolio completion to the DMQ criteria, I wouldn't believe for one minute it will be any "easier" by a long chalk.
when I completed my L2 it was using traditional methods (ie stalking through woods etc) , and the preparation, fear, nerves, weather, checking every nut and bolt to comply, then stalking in for the shot to instill a humane dispatch, then all the inspection work, hygiene, paperwork - Three times, it is a time of of apprehension irrespective how long someone has been stalking, when you have been out all day only to see deer and no text book shot is available, the whole thing is meant to keep your standards up and be competent in what you do.( And when completed the best thing you've done and enjoyed for years)
Providing you are ready and experienced enough to undertake the L2, the opportunity to have perhaps a beast that may be easier to locate could be a bonus to ease the stalk tension.
It is a lot of money to dish out at one time, but if it goes right, money saved.
My only thought would be a pre L2 stalk with a separate AW prior to, to ensure you are ready to undertake the work and get you correctly prepared. 5 p's. Preparation, planning, prevents poor performance (normally 6)
I see the estate will in the event you cannot complete your L2 will run the course as a learning time for the candidate, win win win situation for the candidate.
Overall it will help install further confidence in the BDS and L2 certificate, and urge stalkers to undertake the portfolio, and there is a constructive way of getting certificated and knowing the only way to pass is to get good experience and training in the field no way can you blag that, That's why AW and assessors are what they are - to ensure you are a competent to undertake a safe, humane dispatch of deer and ensure all good carcasses are delivered in condition for the food chain.
Personally, if it's successful it will be a major step forward to maintaining benchmark standards and could reduce the cost for the stalker, I don't believe it will affect business supplying deer stalking as the spin off will or should be that would be L2 candidates will be more prone to want to learn or get more when they pay to go out like gralloching, inspection help and experience the correct way of doing things working towards L2, people are shown or pick up gralloching methods that are ok I guess for private consumption Professional deer stalkers can up the game and help prepare possible candidates the right way to progress towards L2
Good luck to Wadhurst and the BDS
atb
Phil
when I completed my L2 it was using traditional methods (ie stalking through woods etc) , and the preparation, fear, nerves, weather, checking every nut and bolt to comply, then stalking in for the shot to instill a humane dispatch, then all the inspection work, hygiene, paperwork - Three times, it is a time of of apprehension irrespective how long someone has been stalking, when you have been out all day only to see deer and no text book shot is available, the whole thing is meant to keep your standards up and be competent in what you do.( And when completed the best thing you've done and enjoyed for years)
Providing you are ready and experienced enough to undertake the L2, the opportunity to have perhaps a beast that may be easier to locate could be a bonus to ease the stalk tension.
It is a lot of money to dish out at one time, but if it goes right, money saved.
My only thought would be a pre L2 stalk with a separate AW prior to, to ensure you are ready to undertake the work and get you correctly prepared. 5 p's. Preparation, planning, prevents poor performance (normally 6)
I see the estate will in the event you cannot complete your L2 will run the course as a learning time for the candidate, win win win situation for the candidate.
Overall it will help install further confidence in the BDS and L2 certificate, and urge stalkers to undertake the portfolio, and there is a constructive way of getting certificated and knowing the only way to pass is to get good experience and training in the field no way can you blag that, That's why AW and assessors are what they are - to ensure you are a competent to undertake a safe, humane dispatch of deer and ensure all good carcasses are delivered in condition for the food chain.
Personally, if it's successful it will be a major step forward to maintaining benchmark standards and could reduce the cost for the stalker, I don't believe it will affect business supplying deer stalking as the spin off will or should be that would be L2 candidates will be more prone to want to learn or get more when they pay to go out like gralloching, inspection help and experience the correct way of doing things working towards L2, people are shown or pick up gralloching methods that are ok I guess for private consumption Professional deer stalkers can up the game and help prepare possible candidates the right way to progress towards L2
Good luck to Wadhurst and the BDS
atb
Phil
Davie, not sure why you've decided to pm me rather than ask the question in the open but at least you've asked, they say the biggest step is admitting you have a problem so all credit to you for that. When I get back later I will define the difference between park and farm deer for you but right now I have to go out and do the job rather than talk about it. I will answer your question on the open forum, that way I won't have to invoice you for training/consultation.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
According to the witness handbook:-
"The stalk or dispatch assessment will normally take place in an area where deer are wild,
i.e. normally not contained within a perimeter fence or wall. The shooting of farmed deer
cannot be accepted.
With regard to the restrictions to Highseats or other static positions, there is no reason why
the candidate cannot cull from a highseat as long as s/he completes locate and approach
deer separately on the same day or on another occasion or in another location to meet PC
1.5.
Within a deer park the deer must be able to behave normally for the sex, species and time
of year. They must also be able to freely move around the park and thus require a
complete re stalk if they move out of range or sight or are frightened and escape the
original stalk."
According to the DI:-
"The status of enclosed deer such as park deer is not so clear, they are generally regarded as “wild” with respect to shooting seasons but in some
cases may be regarded as property. There is no clear definition of farmed deer but deer which carry tags which include the agricultural holding number or which are listed as part of a farm enterprise are regarded as domestic livestock and therefore as property"
According to DEFRA/fawc:-
"It does not follow that deer that live in an enclosure cannot be classed as wild for meat hygiene purposes.
The decision as to whether a deer is wild or farmed should,according to the Food Standards Agency, be determined with reference to the conditions and circumstances in which the deer live."
atb Tim
"The stalk or dispatch assessment will normally take place in an area where deer are wild,
i.e. normally not contained within a perimeter fence or wall. The shooting of farmed deer
cannot be accepted.
With regard to the restrictions to Highseats or other static positions, there is no reason why
the candidate cannot cull from a highseat as long as s/he completes locate and approach
deer separately on the same day or on another occasion or in another location to meet PC
1.5.
Within a deer park the deer must be able to behave normally for the sex, species and time
of year. They must also be able to freely move around the park and thus require a
complete re stalk if they move out of range or sight or are frightened and escape the
original stalk."
According to the DI:-
"The status of enclosed deer such as park deer is not so clear, they are generally regarded as “wild” with respect to shooting seasons but in some
cases may be regarded as property. There is no clear definition of farmed deer but deer which carry tags which include the agricultural holding number or which are listed as part of a farm enterprise are regarded as domestic livestock and therefore as property"
According to DEFRA/fawc:-
"It does not follow that deer that live in an enclosure cannot be classed as wild for meat hygiene purposes.
The decision as to whether a deer is wild or farmed should,according to the Food Standards Agency, be determined with reference to the conditions and circumstances in which the deer live."
atb Tim
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Farmed deer cannot (or should not) be sold to Game dealers, and also farmed deer are not covered by the close seasons. They can be culled at any time of the year.
I'm surprised that the DI us 'unclear' about the status of Park deer??? … especially with Peter Watson at the helm!!!!
I'm surprised that the DI us 'unclear' about the status of Park deer??? … especially with Peter Watson at the helm!!!!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Farmed deer cannot (or should not) be sold to Game dealers, and also farmed deer are not covered by the close seasons. They can be culled at any time of the year.
I'm surprised that the DI us 'unclear' about the status of Park deer??? … especially with Peter Watson at the helm!!!!
Perhaps a clear definition of the differences between Farmed,Park & Wild deer would be a suitable topic for Jelen's Deer News? As many wild deer populations are apparently of park origin at what point are they considered to be wild, after escape? the next generation after escape? Anyone know?
atb Tim
6pointer
Well-Known Member
So now we can be confused because quite a few farmed deer even in very small areas less than 200 acres are classed as park deer this will allow them to be shot within in there own seasons and cut out most of the live stock bureaucracy. Send your invoice for training/consultation JC it will go with the rest next to the kindling.
Thanks Tim.
JC I am glad you go out and do the job I hope you thought that statement would impress people
.
Mike not much difference then when it comes to letting some one shoot one for a lev 2 witnessed stalk.
I do not agree with Farmed or Park deer getting classed as wild deer stalking in my own personnel opinion it is wrong. I don't have a problem with Mike or the deer welfare charity BDS having training days on how to deal with deer that are fenced in infact I think it is a different aspect of deer management but it is not wild deer stalking.
Last post from me on this.
Thanks Tim.
JC I am glad you go out and do the job I hope you thought that statement would impress people
.Mike not much difference then when it comes to letting some one shoot one for a lev 2 witnessed stalk.
I do not agree with Farmed or Park deer getting classed as wild deer stalking in my own personnel opinion it is wrong. I don't have a problem with Mike or the deer welfare charity BDS having training days on how to deal with deer that are fenced in infact I think it is a different aspect of deer management but it is not wild deer stalking.
Last post from me on this.
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BDS turns DSC2 into 'shake and bake' weekend course?
BDS have apparently done a deal with a deer park so that you can do your 3 witnessed culls in a weekend
British Deer Society fast-track offer to DSC2 candidates | Shooting and field sports news, politics and legal | Shooting UK | Shooting UK
Doesn't this undermine everything they've been saying for years about the level of evidence and experience needed to pass DSC2?
BDS have apparently done a deal with a deer park so that you can do your 3 witnessed culls in a weekend
British Deer Society fast-track offer to DSC2 candidates | Shooting and field sports news, politics and legal | Shooting UK | Shooting UK
Doesn't this undermine everything they've been saying for years about the level of evidence and experience needed to pass DSC2?
You are as late to the party on this one as their Winter Journal!
Bigboab29
Well-Known Member
This just got done on another thread last week labrat. There would be 2 sides to it those with level 2 will be peeved off as they have worked hard to get it and now you can get it over a weekend, and those who havent got level 2 yet an dont have there own ground will think its a brilliant idea.
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Bigboab29
Well-Known Member
Have a look back and you will see the post bud it was interesting but I think the overwhelming jist of it was it won't do much good for deer stalking in a whole if people can just read a book then go and do level 2 in 2 days. I suppose it comes down to how strict the aw's will be in the park.
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