Low budget and fun homage to an L42A1

[truser00]

Why is the word "reproof" being used as if it immediately makes the action stronger? Or are you suggesting getting it reproofed just to put @Enfield P 14 's mind at ease?

I have heard of several 7.62 Enfields failing proof prior to release from the MOD and subsequently being chopped up, not just for being ZF'd during service. For the sake of not ripping the lugs off the bolt with .308 proof rounds and if @Enfield P 14 does not wish to damage his rifle during his lifetime, he can stick to what his rifle is proofed to.

Ignoring the notice released by the NRA a few years ago and what a lot of old-time TR gunsmiths say, these are still old rifles after all and things do fail after repeated use, no need to accelerate the wear, especially when you're not buying them to shoot 1/4MOA groups.

 

[HandB]

Why is the word "reproof" being used as if it immediately makes the action stronger? Or are you suggesting getting it reproofed just to put @Enfield P 14 's mind at ease?

I have heard of several 7.62 Enfields failing proof prior to release from the MOD and subsequently being chopped up, not just for being ZF'd during service. For the sake of not ripping the lugs off the bolt with .308 proof rounds and if @Enfield P 14 does not wish to damage his rifle during his lifetime, he can stick to what his rifle is proofed to.

Ignoring the notice released by the NRA a few years ago and what a lot of old-time TR gunsmiths say, these are still old rifles after all and things do fail after repeated use, no need to accelerate the wear, especially when you're not buying them to shoot 1/4MOA groups.

This thread is supposed to be about a fun and low budget homage to an L42A1 not a discussion on proof marks so I think it's run its course.

 

[Enfield P 14]

Good afternoon, HandB,

thank you. Reproofing is after all hardly a good solution here.. . Please see below. And in post 35 above. Expensive, risky and probably unneccessary.

It is here basically about the safe shooting of a training-ammo and one or better two accurate cartridges, for "short"- and "long"-distances, to me. I tried to keep it simple first and used only one Match-round-type. A well-known if not famous round-type with a heavy bullet, according to the test-info in the VISIER-Gun-Magazine 2/1992. They used a couple of factory- and handloads, using from 125 to 185 grs-bullets. And no MV-measurements. I didn't have any other information then, for a long time. I didn't and still don't reload for any of my guns, for several reasons. Here and there is a handload in my use, which comes from somebody around me, from one of my clubs. Expensive ammo. But rarely.

The 7,62 mm Nato/resp. selected .308 Win.-Ammo is not the only caliber i have in use. It is 1 resp. 2 of 8 different calibers, totally.

After getting several case-ruptures, I realized that the 2 rounds are but they are more different than initially thought. Yes and nobody knew then the 7,62-Nato-Enfields here, unfortunately. This 19 tons-proof was absolutely unknown and unclear, in consequence. It's a bit a shame for Switzerland IMHO, considering the long relationship between our countries, by the way.
So what do we in this case ? We try to search all the necessary information, after a hobby-break between ca. 1993 and 2016 - and analyze and verify that, of course. I intended and still intend only to enjoy the shooting-comfort and the accuracy of my Enfield Enforcer, preferable until 600-800 Yards/meters. Starting with 100 and 300 meters.

Soon I detected that we have in this ammo-question simply said 2 really different "camps". The -"150 grain-camp" and the "over 150 grain-camp". The given information, advice was quickly really contradictory and sometimes hardly practical.
A good way to avoid overloading the rifle is to adhere to the gas pressure limit, I find.
After a long and arduous search some questions were answered. The use of certain types of ammunition seemed justifiable. However, some"well-founded doubts" remained yet.


Therefore I am really glad to read that you use something new for this "sibling" with the GGG .308 Win.175 grs-factory-ammo and that without trouble. I never read or heard of such an ammo in a L 42/L 39 before

I try just to find out how that works ? We don't have this GGG-round here in CH, not yet.. But the 155,- 168- and 190 grs-round. But lets see.. !? Despite that, the GGG ammo-brand itself impresses me really !
The Federal .308 Win. 175 grs "Gold Medal"-Match is the often demanded factory-ammo in this bulletweight for this rifle.

Could you measure the muzzle-velocity of the GGG 175 grs in your rifle, possibly ?

 

[Enfield P 14]

Pardon me: I tried to write that first. Were you able to measure the MV of your L39 with the 175 gr-GGG-Match-ammo ?

Hoping that here.. .

So different pressures with different loads in 7,62 Nato and .308 Win., an addition from another source. :


As I stated previously it varies lot to lot. Test results here are with a 24" barrel with 10" twist. Additional testing in 12 and 14" twist barrels generally results in respectively lower psi while velocities stay pretty much the same. The time/pressure curve is slower as the twist decreases. Note also Three lots of of M118 White Box run between 56,400 and 59,700 psi(M43).

5 lots of M118SB ran 56,700 to 61,700 psi(M43)
Note; one lot of LC91 (6th) ran 63,300 psi(M43) and produced 125+ fps over the other 5 lots. Accuracy was also very poor.

4 lots of M118LR (one with ball powder) ran 57,900 to 61,200 psi(M43).

Additionally for comparison in this thread to demonstrate the fact that a statement such as "the .308W is higher pressure loaded than 7.62 NATO" is not a correct statement.;

Winchester 150 gr PP: 55,200 psi(M43)
Remington 150 gr CL: 56,100 psi(M43)
Federal 150gr PS: 55,500 psi(M43)
Winchester 180 gr ST; 56,900 psi(43)

BTW
Numerous lots of US and foreign M80 7.62 NATO measured psi fall above and below most factory .308W ammunition. Also as I previously mentioned some lots of .308W factory ammunition are right up close to the MAP of 62,000 psi with M118.

Additional M80 (US and foreign) tested on the same day, consecutively, and under the same conditions;

IVI70: 53,900 psi(M43)
LC74; 52,100 psi(M43)
WRA69: 60,400 psi(M43)
LC74 (steel jacketed bullets); 58,200 psi(M43)
LC87; 64,800 psiM43) (yup, that one is right up there and is the highest 7.62 NATO or factory .308W I have recorded)
LC90; 59,700 psi(M43)
IVI70; 58,000 psi(M43)
Cavim 91; 53,100 psi(M43)
Chinese 61 92; 45,700 psi(M43) (100+ fps less than US M80)
OFV82; 42,600 psi(M43) (200+ fps less than US M80)
MAL 11-83; 52,200 psi(M43)
Wolf M80; 45,800 psi(M43) (100+ fps less than US M80)
FNM 80-49; 50,900 psi(M43)

As you can plainly see there is no "rule" as to which cartridge (.308W or 7.62 NATO) has the higher psi. You just puts your money down and takes what you get.........


Larry Gibson



Best regards Enfield P 14

 

[Enfield P 14]

My old work rifle was a .42, and later I got one in its box, #424, including a Pecar scope, etc. Back then, they were considered disposable.

I remember I sold it to May of London with four magazines but no box. I threw the box off the lorry as I had no room in the shed.

I gave the numbered scope to my shooting pal, who probably still has it!

The cash price was £200 for the whole lot, and I sold it for £600. I converted a few L1A1 mags to fit onto Sterling mags for PR back then.

So you had two of this 7,62 Nato-Conversion-Enfields in total - that's also admirable Back then, they were considered disposable.. . Uhm.. Well, yes, as English you probably perceive these rifles differently than someone outside the UK..

That is a interesting price-info, too.. When was this, please ?.. Today a good conditioned Enfield Enforcer can be sold for several 1000 dollars.. Especially canadian dollars.. .

 

[Enfield P 14]

Why is the word "reproof" being used as if it immediately makes the action stronger? Or are you suggesting getting it reproofed just to put @Enfield P 14 's mind at ease?

I have heard of several 7.62 Enfields failing proof prior to release from the MOD and subsequently being chopped up, not just for being ZF'd during service. For the sake of not ripping the lugs off the bolt with .308 proof rounds and if @Enfield P 14 does not wish to damage his rifle during his lifetime, he can stick to what his rifle is proofed to.

Ignoring the notice released by the NRA a few years ago and what a lot of old-time TR gunsmiths say, these are still old rifles after all and things do fail after repeated use, no need to accelerate the wear, especially when you're not buying them to shoot 1/4MOA groups.

truser00, it's not my intention to use this expression in this way. The word reproof himself, alone, suggests only a repeated proofing. That can also mean a repetition of the first proof, after a repair-work for example. An barrel-change f.e. In general, depending on the corresponding laws. Possibly it means another than the original caliber/ammo should be used and therefore the rifle must be reproofed to ensure that this ammo is safe to use. Be it because of the law or because of a carefully and responsibly owner. A change from the .303 British to the .303 Epps Improved, perhaps in Canada for example. To "stay technically in our region" .

Or old and new rounds in the basically same caliber, f.e. the old 10,3x60 R No. 270-round and new RWS-ammo in the very same caliber - because they are in ballistics and pressure really different. This cartridge is nothing other than the Swiss version of the old British .450/400 Black Powder Express 2 3/8", which originated around 1880 and was converted to smokeless nitro powders shortly before the turn of the century.
I would do that reproof even without a must to do that, coming from side of the hunting-law.

Regarding at the RWS .308 Win. 154 grain-round and their partially return to UK even after their ban, the NRA-Note 2010 is quite understandable. But for me, this note ist not informative beyond that. I intend to use the suitable ammo, but what is suitable, actually ? Switzerland is not CIP-member and has no proof-house, usable for civilian arms. My Enforcer should not be stressed by any .308 Win.-proof-cartridge. But such a 20 tons/21 tons-reproof could have helped - perhaps.. .

Despite that, being sure by considering the gas-pressure-limits that would be fine. As some others do. The opinions on the usable ammunition or the maximum gas pressure here still differ widely, unfortunately. Yes, as a general impression..

My practical experience proved that even some 147 grain-Nato/Nato-like-ammo can be too hot.. It was no pakistani-surplus ! And the other way round... No accidents. But I have to take care that this stays exactly this way, hmm ?

However, to find out how others cope with bullet-weights over 150 grains, and especially with match ammunition types, is still valuable Perhaps somebody measured his own ammo and calculated the ballistics, including pressure.. .

Back to the origin: HandB proves with his excellent 900-yard-shooting that great things are possible !

As mentioned, the Federal 175 grain "Gold Medal-Match" is suitable - special cases and powder. But how long is exactly this round available in "Helvetia", too ? A bad, very quick aiming, but the accuracy-potential is despite that already visible here.

 

[HandB]

Average muzzle velocity of five shots of GGG 175gr match ammo in the L39A1 is 2688.2fps.

 

[Enfield P 14]

Fine, HandB. Thank you very much

The .308 Win. GGG 175 gr Match has a MV of (rounded) 2688 f/ps in your L39 A1-Rifle. That means around 819 meters per second/m/s or Mündungsgeschwindigkeit.


The GGG Match gained a little more speed. That is a bit surprising to me.. Because my experience with the concurrents in this bullet-weight is as follows:

- Federal 175 gr Gold Medal Match HPBT: 2585 f/ps resp. 788 m/s. 4 m/s less than with a 24-inch-Barrel. No trouble at all. A 7-shot-group with 3 very close hits.

- Fiocchi 175 gr Exacta Match HPBT: 2696 f/ps resp. 822 m/s. 12 m/s more " " " " " Too hot. Sticky bolt. No 5-shots fired, therefore.

- RUAG 175 gr Swiss P Match HPBT: 2559 f/ps resp. 780 m/s 10 m/s less " " " " " No trouble at all. A 5-shot-group with 4 very close hits.


The tendence is to loose a bit speed. The RUAG 176 gr FMS Swiss P Ball and Hornady 178 gr BTHP Match have not yet been measured. The first of this two has been test-fired, no trouble. The catalogue-MV is here 2595 F/ps resp. 790 resp. 792 m/s.

And, as a precaution, I didn't even test the Hornady .308 Win. 178 grs BTHP Superformance Match with a 46.6 gr powder-charge, which was recommended to me by mistake of a dealer. Muzzle-velocity in catalogue 2775 f/s resp. 845 m/s.. .

"Good night at 6 o'clock, Mary !"


Trying to keep the stress for the bolt and the headspace-increase as low as possible.

 

[alberta boy]

So you had two of this 7,62 Nato-Conversion-Enfields in total - that's also admirable Back then, they were considered disposable.. . Uhm.. Well, yes, as English you probably perceive these rifles differently than someone outside the UK..

That is a interesting price-info, too.. When was this, please ?.. Today a good conditioned Enfield Enforcer can be sold for several 1000 dollars.. Especially canadian dollars.. .

There's a pair of consecutively numbered Envoys for sale on CanadianGunNutz right now for $ 8,000 Cdn, so $4,000 Cdn each . There's also a completely kitted out L42 listed . He's asking $ 19,000 Cdn for it . Whether he gets that for it is another story , he's had it listed at that price for some time now . I have a Parker Hale T4 that I used to shoot in the UK many years ago , I've been offered $ 3,000 Cdn for it , and that was some time ago . I still shoot mine and it still does what is was designed to do , but these rifles are getting collectable now and a lot of other modern shooters won't shoot them much . A lot of Canadians have done the same as HandB and built their own , it's a bit of a cottage industry here . The other really popular conversions are in 45 ACP and 7.62x39 . Complete lower receiver assemblies are available here for reasonable prices . I've shot a friend's faux DeLisle carbine in 45 ACP a number of times , a very fun little rifle , and after all , that's what it's all about .

AB

 

[Enfield P 14]

There's a pair of consecutively numbered Envoys for sale on CanadianGunNutz right now for $ 8,000 Cdn, so $4,000 Cdn each . There's also a completely kitted out L42 listed . He's asking $ 19,000 Cdn for it . Whether he gets that for it is another story , he's had it listed at that price for some time now . I have a Parker Hale T4 that I used to shoot in the UK many years ago , I've been offered $ 3,000 Cdn for it , and that was some time ago . I still shoot mine and it still does what is was designed to do , but these rifles are getting collectable now and a lot of other modern shooters won't shoot them much . A lot of Canadians have done the same as HandB and built their own , it's a bit of a cottage industry here . The other really popular conversions are in 45 ACP and 7.62x39 . Complete lower receiver assemblies are available here for reasonable prices . I've shot a friend's faux DeLisle carbine in 45 ACP a number of times , a very fun little rifle , and after all , that's what it's all about .

AB

Envoy-Pair: Yes.. . This numbers show the start of the development of the Enfield-price-spiral IMHO - and the general appreciation for these rifles

L42-Kit: A price of 19000 Canadian Dollars that's .. Yes, whether he gets this amount, is another story.. I remember of an sold L42 A1, also complete, for ca. 12'000 US-Dollars or ca. 14'000 Swiss Francs, ca. 3 Years ago...

A Parker-Hale T 4-Targetrifle - that's fine, too. You mentioned it earlier somewhere here. I remember. Exactly - now we should keep such equipment, shoot and enjoy it as long as possible. The modern, younger shooters often react to such rifles not only with ignorance, but also with contempt and disdain. It's a shame, but probably irreversible.. . Unfortunately.

A (faux) DeLisle-Carbine in .45 ACP: what a surprise That's it what counts ! On the other side, the more time passes, the more replicas, copies are getting made. It's understandable.. .

 

[Enfield P 14]

My old work rifle was a .42, and later I got one in its box, #424, including a Pecar scope, etc. Back then, they were considered disposable.

I remember I sold it to May of London with four magazines but no box. I threw the box off the lorry as I had no room in the shed.

I gave the numbered scope to my shooting pal, who probably still has it!

The cash price was £200 for the whole lot, and I sold it for £600. I converted a few L1A1 mags to fit onto Sterling mags for PR back then.

In the older other thread "Lee-Enfield Enforcer" on the SD you gave me with the 175 gr-HPBT-Service-Round Mk 316 a very good info, paul o' A correct info. Later I found a confirmation on this forum with some technical details. Federal reached that with a special powdercharge- and case-combination. Only 53'000 PSI resp. even less !

https://www.enfield-rifles.com/federal-308-ammunition_topic10494.html

Topic: Federal. 308 Ammunition Posted: April 10 2020 at 7:00pm

I emailed Federal Ammunition a couple of days ago and explained my concerns with firing commercial .308 ammunition in a rifle designed for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. Their email response was to say that all of their commercial .308 ammunition, (specifically the 175grn BTHP Gold Match) is a superior choice in all rifles chambered for the 7.62x51. They sent three attachments with the email.
They would not divulge any PSI numbers however.(trade secrets).


Background of this "good news" is - as far as we know - an earlier accident with a .303 British Federal-round.

I tried out 3 different 168 gr Federal GM-Match-rounds and the 175 gr-sibling, too. As above mentioned, too, I had absolutely no trouble. The oldest box 168 grs reached a MV of 833 m/s/2732 f/ps , surprisingly, then followed 815 m/s/2673 f/ps and 811 m/s/2660/fps, respectively.

The "Surprise from Federal" - it worked well to me, too - thanks explicitly ! As I still can say that.. Some years passed..

 

[paul o']

So you had two of this 7,62 Nato-Conversion-Enfields in total - that's also admirable Back then, they were considered disposable.. . Uhm.. Well, yes, as English you probably perceive these rifles differently than someone outside the UK..

That is a interesting price-info, too.. When was this, please ?.. Today a good conditioned Enfield Enforcer can be sold for several 1000 dollars.. Especially canadian dollars.. .

In the 90's we had a dealer pal who had around 60 boxed direct from the mob two were still in paper.
Mine was one of them! So yup it was minty fresh lol.
Probably had 1000 rds of Radway Green black ️ down it before I found a nice AR m4 buy then Fat bob in the UK had them singing and dialed in as a good conversion to single straight pull.

 

[Enfield P 14]

Average muzzle velocity of five shots of GGG 175gr match ammo in the L39A1 is 2688.2fps.

Hand B: Then you know – and use – the specialty of GGG-Ammo, too... The not necessarily obvious advantage of this newer factory ammunition.


And that helps to explain this figures above.. ?

How do you actually rate the quality of the P-Max program ?

 

[Enfield P 14]

In the 90's we had a dealer pal who had around 60 boxed direct from the mob two were still in paper.
Mine was one of them! So yup it was minty fresh lol.
Probably had 1000 rds of Radway Green black ️ down it before I found a nice AR m4 buy then Fat bob in the UK had them singing and dialed in as a good conversion to single straight pull.

It's nice of you to try to fill me in on all this special things — unfortunately, I don't understand this dialect not as well as i would like to. Me dumb foreigner

Pardon me, paul'o: a dealer pal means what, please ?..

Direct from the mob: uuppss ?? The last of these rifles were so sought-after that queuing was no longer enough and a mob formed ?.. .

P.S.: Pst - who is Fat bob ??..

 

[Enfield P 14]

Next saturday the weather is going to be better !!


Finally

 

[paul o']

It's nice of you to try to fill me in on all this special things — unfortunately, I don't understand this dialect not as well as i would like to. Me dumb foreigner

Pardon me, paul'o: a dealer pal means what, please ?..

Direct from the mob: uuppss ?? The last of these rifles were so sought-after that queuing was no longer enough and a mob formed ?.. .

P.S.: Pst - who is Fat bob ??..

Southern gun Co'.
They came in without markings ie no countries proof house ID'.
A dealer who had contacts around the world.