Lynx reintroduction rejected

A Guy Out West

Well-Known Member
#21
N. American lynx feed in large part on snowshoe hares, I would guess that Euro lynx would eat similar things over there. The problem with reintroducing a predator is that once they are established, it's very difficult to open a hunting season for them. You would have every know nothing protesting and convincing the ignorant public that it's just not right to kill the endangered lynx. Case in point over here is the wolf and grizzly bear. It took a crazy amount of time and legal battles to get the wolf back on the hunt list. Wyoming almost had a grizzly hunt this year but it got cancelled at the last minute.
 

woodmaster

Well-Known Member
#22
They may be smarter than you think! Perhaps they have made a simplistic application in order that the response outlines their weaknesses and lack of specific evidence. Now they know what exactly is required for a proper application including all the relevant studies and stakeholder views need to be obtained.
I imagine this will be more work than they alone can handle or finance but does now give a starting point for a campaign should they wish to begin one.
 

Orion

Well-Known Member
#23
They may be smarter than you think! Perhaps they have made a simplistic application in order that the response outlines their weaknesses and lack of specific evidence. Now they know what exactly is required for a proper application including all the relevant studies and stakeholder views need to be obtained.
I imagine this will be more work than they alone can handle or finance but does now give a starting point for a campaign should they wish to begin one.
Can’t see it. Dr O’ would have been well aware of the scientific and other rigour required to get a scheme like this off the ground. Who knows what the backstory to it is? Bona-fide research funding is always difficult to secure so maybe that contributed to involvement in what is on the face of it a somewhat emotive rather than practical project.
 

big ears

Well-Known Member
#24
Just back from Montana and it has given me food for thought. Over there their views on hunting are very different. They see it as subsistence as well as enjoyable- you cannot sell game meat. On top of this all of the animals are owned by the people for their benefit. This allows states to control the number and when they are to be culled with tight archery and rifle seasons. They do kill predators but not raptors. The penalties for killing an animal without a tag are huge and it is ingrained into their culture not to do it.
Ok they have huge tracts if public land and loads of space but the principal stands as they cannot willfully go out and shoot what they like when they like.

In the UK we have an almost unrestricted amount of killing of deer and other species. It is often killed for financial gain rather than subsistence and there is no collective ownership rather it is very protected and defended by few individuals. This gives rise to resentment and gives the antis all the ammo they need.

I agree with not introducing the lynx, not because it will affect deer populations but rather to protect the small crofters loosing their livelihood if the lynx went after their sheep. The antis are strong and we are helping them. As one American said your hunting laws are like our gun laws too liberal, and your gun laws are like our hunting laws. Maybe in some respects they are right, we want the antis to stop and us to have uncontrolled right to kill what we like. Maybe we should rethink this


Tin hat on!

BE
 
#28
The re wilding lot, the ones that just think it's a great idea without any further knowledge on the subject, should be forced to live the life of a livestock manager, in an area that has been re wilded, AND stand the financial / mental consequences of un fettered breeding of wolves / lynx etc.
 
#29
I'm a sheep farmer who farms a stone's throw from kielder, but find myself strangely conflicted about this. I lamb big numbers of sheep out on the hill and estimate i loose about 30 lambs each year to foxes. This represents a loss in turnover of about £1350 per year. But would i like to see the fox eradicated to the point of extinction? No. I actually enjoy the challenge of farming alongside them, snaring and shooting etc. Looking the sheep is more exciting with a .243 slung over your shoulder! All of my neighbours were furious about the possibility of lynx being added to the mix, and I completely understand that, but perhaps I'm the one sheep farmer in North Northumberland who would have stood the loss of some livestock to share these hills with something wilder. As long as I could have legally hunted them, I think I would have enjoyed sharing this landscape with lynx. Just my feeling, which I understand is not representative!
 

Orion

Well-Known Member
#30
As long as I could have legally hunted them, I think I would have enjoyed sharing this landscape with lynx. Just my feeling, which I understand is not representative!
But how would you feel about reintroduction if you couldn’t hunt or control them and had to stand by while x number of your sheep and lambs per annum were being killed? Because that would be the reality of any rewilding project.
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
#31
But how would you feel about reintroduction if you couldn’t hunt or control them and had to stand by while x number of your sheep and lambs per annum were being killed? Because that would be the reality of any rewilding project.
Are you sure?

From what I read in the Defra summary, there already were comprehensive guidelines established which would include impact on local populations. That was one of the issues that they were able to cite as being not addressed by the rejected application.

International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) guidelines...

"The guidelines are clear that potential risks to existing wildlife, livelihoods and the welfare of people must be managed and mitigated. The level of effort should be proportionate to the potential impacts of the translocation. Translocations involving top-level predators such as lynx are highly contentious and therefore require careful consideration and a rigorous approach to planning, risk assessment and implementation. The guidelines state that where risk is high and/or uncertainty remains about risks and their impacts, a translocation should not proceed."


I thought the Defra response was very good and level headed. I had not heard of the IUCN guidelines before which seemed equally so.

Alan
 
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Orion

Well-Known Member
#32
That may well be the case when considering reintroduction, but the previous poster was considering hunting post the event happening. I’ll cite the example of another reintroduced predatory species within the EU and how difficult it is to obtain authority to control or hunt them despite overwhelming evidence of the need to do so - wolves.
 

VSS

Well-Known Member
#33
I'm a sheep farmer who farms a stone's throw from kielder, but find myself strangely conflicted about this. I lamb big numbers of sheep out on the hill and estimate i loose about 30 lambs each year to foxes. This represents a loss in turnover of about £1350 per year. But would i like to see the fox eradicated to the point of extinction? No. I actually enjoy the challenge of farming alongside them, snaring and shooting etc. Looking the sheep is more exciting with a .243 slung over your shoulder! All of my neighbours were furious about the possibility of lynx being added to the mix, and I completely understand that, but perhaps I'm the one sheep farmer in North Northumberland who would have stood the loss of some livestock to share these hills with something wilder. As long as I could have legally hunted them, I think I would have enjoyed sharing this landscape with lynx. Just my feeling, which I understand is not representative!
I too am a sheep farmer, and like you I sit on the fence over this issue.
I think that reintroductions such as lynx may have a place in the UK ecosystems going forward, but I belive that farmers should have an unquestioned right to protect their animals from predation.
So, if the predators stay in the woods then that's all fine and dandy. If they come out and make a nuisance of themselves then they won't be under any protection.
 

Alantoo

Well-Known Member
#34
That may well be the case when considering reintroduction, but the previous poster was considering hunting post the event happening. I’ll cite the example of another reintroduced predatory species within the EU and how difficult it is to obtain authority to control or hunt them despite overwhelming evidence of the need to do so - wolves.
The guidelines Defra referred to were published in 2013 and those mention others from 1998..."The finished Guidelines and Annexes cover a wider array of situations and solutions, with their opportunities and risks, than the 1998 Guidelines."

https://portals.iucn.org/library/efiles/documents/2013-009.pdf

Maybe the wolves you mention were not introduced on the basis of the current guidelines? Or the current guidelines were produced as a result of the failures and or successes of the earlier events? The exit strategy and the lack of control systems DEFRA refer to would appear to include for those eventualities.

No expert of course just going by what I have read since the thread started.

Alan
 

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