MEASURING HEADS AT THE GAME-FAIR.

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sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
Personally I dont see an on site problem, we have some members who dispute the gentleman in question being an official CIC member, and some that are insisting he is still able to undertake measuring for CIC. It is not the business of this site or the Admin team to become involved or seek confirmation, this is up to the members through their friends or contacts.

I do not know the gentleman involved, but I hope that an ammicable agreement is reached between the two parties.

Thank you

Sikamalc Admin.
 
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Davie

Guest
sikamalc don't you think there is a problem when to or more members are on different sides with regards the answer to the question is Dominic G Still able to measure heads. The site admin not having any axe to grind could in fact act as a neutral party and come up with the answer. tHE MEMBERS SHOULD TRUST THE SITE TO COME UP WITH THE FACTS AND THAT WOULD BE THAT NO NEED TO LOOSE SITE CONTRIBUTORS.

PS STAG NICE SILVER MATE AND SHOT AT THE RIGHT AGE A TRUE CULL TROPHY
 

cicuk

Well-Known Member
MEASURING HEADS AT THE GAME FAIR

For the sake of clarity and hopefully to stop speculation, I can confirm that Mr Griffith is not a member of the CIC UK National Permanent Trophy Commission and is no longer an accredited CIC measurer. The reasons for this situation are not for public consumption unless Mr Griffith wishes to make them so.

I understand that he may be offering a measuring service with BASC at the Game Fair, but measurements made by him will not be recognised by the CIC, nor is he permitted to use the CIC logo and certificates or to issue CIC medals.

The UK Trophy Commission team will be at the Game fair as usual operating from the BDS stand, who have been kind enough to offer space for the team.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
6.5 x 55 said:
sikamalc don't you think there is a problem when to or more members are on different sides with regards the answer to the question is Dominic G Still able to measure heads. The site admin not having any axe to grind could in fact act as a neutral party and come up with the answer. tHE MEMBERS SHOULD TRUST THE SITE TO COME UP WITH THE FACTS AND THAT WOULD BE THAT NO NEED TO LOOSE SITE CONTRIBUTORS.

6.5x55,

IMHO, I think thats expecting too much of the site admin...They make available a forum where we the members can discuss different issues.

Its the responsibility of the person giving the information and the person receiving it too satisfy themselves of its accuracy...

Where there are differing opinions, its up to the individual member to decide what he believes. At the very least, such debate highlights to others that the issue concerned is not cut and dry and some discretion is called for..

Imagine the position the Admin would be in if they were held responsible for home load data that appears here for instance???

Regards,

Peter
 
D

Davie

Guest
Peter the reply that cicuk has given is what was required but for something of this type the admin could have made contact with any of the cic measures and got them to clear the situation up.I do realise the for lots of subjects this would not be possible and for areas of shooting stalking were there is a danger to peoples health eg home loading insecticieds etc i can fully understand your point. I know that as members we are responsible for our own posts but a little help from a neutral was all i suggested . If that cant be done then so be it.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
CICUK. Thank you for clarifying the situation to our members it is much appreciated.

It pays to be patient with these situations, and as you can see this has paid off by recieving the correct answer from the horses mouth so to speak. The Admin team did not see it fit to ask such questions to an indivdual CIC measurer or approach the organisation itself, it is our place to remain neutreul in such matters.

Sikamalc (Admin)
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
Measureing heads.

Thanks CICUK !

All necessary has been revealed as predicted.

[ Should be all necessary INFORMATION has been revealed as predicted.]

HWH.
 

griff

Well-Known Member
stag1933,
"all has been revealed", NOT SO! and well you know it!
I just hope that someone tells the whole story, and reveals the truth.

regards
griff
 

paul k

Well-Known Member
Trapper said:
GRIFF
pay nowt its on Tinternet how to and sizes etc measure from coronet to cornet-to! and width between should give a clue as to whether you are on board or a sinking ship.
trapper

The only thing is that a part of the evaluation of most species includes some subjective assessments and only a trained expert can give you a score on this. Mesurements alone will tell you if it's an easy gold, silver or bronze but if it's marginal you might need some expert help.
 
D

Davie

Guest
Paul k I was told by a cic assessor that while they charge for measuring medal heads if they don't make the grade then there will be no charge. So if any one thought there trophy might make a bronze eg about 480grm weight they can get it measured with out fear of costs.This to me is a good idea as i feel it was one of the reason why the low end medals never get done. The assessor was MR ALISTER TROOP .
 

cicuk

Well-Known Member
MEASURING HEADS AT THE GAME FAIR

stag1933. I was fascinated by your outline of the 'Swedish Qwik Fix Formula' and with your head showing such a close correlation with Kenneth Whitehead's measurement, so I thought I would apply it to the database of Roe heads that I hold on behalf of the UK CIC.

Regrettably it only seems to work for a few heads. The closest I can find, appyling it to a sample of 200 heads is:

CIC Measurement/ Swedish Formula

102.35 / 101.88
129.80 / 129.24

Unfortunately there are many more (the majority) that are way off, for example:

CIC Measurement/ Swedish Formula

139.14 /125.30
126.03 / 143.28

I think the Swedish formula may rely a little too much on an average score for 'Beauty' points and 'Span' points and if the reality doesn't match the average then the difference can be substantial.

I'll do some more work on it, but it is an interesting formula and one that has much to be said for it as a ready reckoner. Thank you for raising it.
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
cicuk.
I have only shot 4 medal Roe heads in 47 years of stalking, two in Sweden and two in England.
A Swedish Gold C.I.C. 134.28 by Qwik Fix was 139.6 .
The Swedish Silver C.I.C. 117.88 by QF was 118.9 .
An English Silver C.I.C. was similar and a Bronze C.I.C. at 106.3 dropped out below Bronze to 102.8 .
The problem with Roe head measurement is the large number of discretionary points available and different interpretation by the judges.
Many, many years ago the Deer heads at the St. Hubert Club exhibition used to be measured by two judges with both assessments being added together and divided by two.
This gave a fairer appraisal.
At one such event a head presented by myself was judged in this manner, unfortunately for me one judge awarded me 6 points less than the other and I missed my first ever Roe medal by .45 of one C.I.C.point.


The Qwik Fix is only an indication of what may be.

HWH.
 

griff

Well-Known Member
the article in the shooting times makes good reading!If i'm reading the article right then If I were Mr Griffith then I would tell CiC to shove it, and rightly so!
Mr Griffith disagrees with a head that has been Measured by CIC UK,
he then has his accreditation status withdrawn, CIC UK push on with this trophy to try and get this world record ratified,DG'S reason is that the head is mal-formed,But CIC UK still persist with ratification,unbeknown to them an international CIC panel of judges dimiss the head as a world record because it is mal-formed.
justifying DG'S first assesssment.

Mr Prior who is judge jury and executioner of CIC UK is also a good friend of stag1933 who started this unholy row in the first place. Makes you wonder wether or not the telephone call to BASC was staged doesn't it.

regards
griff
 

The Mole

Well-Known Member
There are usually two sides to every story, and I'm sure that this one is no different. Best to keep an open mind until all the facts emerge. In the meantime I'm just sad that a nice bunch of people (well, the ones that I know anyway) have fallen out.
 

Andy L

Well-Known Member
Griff, Lets not stir this hornets nest up again please!!!!! I am sure none of us will ever know the full facts of both sides of the case and in my opinion, the time has come to leave it that way.
 

griff

Well-Known Member
Andy/ Mole
Please accept my apologies, I have no intentions of creating yet another unholy row! But the actions of some leave a lot to be desired!
If you wish I will remove the post!!

regards
griff
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
Well `griff` I am sure that Richard Prior has been insulted by people much more intelligent than yourself, I know that I have .
I do not thlnk Mr.Prior would include me in his circle of friends although we have known each other for many years.
As to your insinuation that my phone call to BASC was a put-up job, that is a load of bunkum.
There seems to be more than one issue involved with Mr. D.G. , the CIC etc.
I have borrowed a copy of the Shooting Times and looked at the photo of the head to which you refer, it seems to be a huge 6 pointer with a very large coronet on the right antler.
The pedicles are not visible unfortunately.
A monster head whatever its true status and place in the records.

HWH.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
I read the article in Shooting Times with some interest and I thought it might provoke a comment or two on here..

I won't even pretend to to understand where the line should be drawn with regards this type of trophy, but regardless of its CIC status it is a remarkable head. Its only a pity the science of why these types of heads are produced isn't better understood.
 

cicuk

Well-Known Member
MEASURING HEADS AT THE GAME FAIR

As I said before I don't want to get into the detail of this issue. It is rightly a private matter between Mr Griffith and the UK CIC Trophy Commission. If I may however, there are two points I would like to make in response to Griff's comments.

The first is that, regardless of what the Shooting Times says, Mr Griffith's views on the Troubridge head have had absolutely nothing to do with his status viz a viz the Commission. We all agree or disagree on heads to an extent from time to time, which is why the CIC has a 'jury' system to ensure that several different views are taken into consideration when deciding on whether a head can be measured or not and indeed what its final score might be.

The second point is that the Troubridge head has not yet been seen by a representative international jury. That will take place in Paris next year at the next CIC General Assembly. The view, some months ago, of some East European judges was bound up, not with records, but with whether the measuring formula is able to deal with this size of head, of which there are now at least three in the UK, two from England and one measured at Scone, from Scotland. So judgements on its status are at this stage a little premature, one way or the other. I would suggest that those who are interested in the outcome of this, and other heads, wait until the results from the next General Assembly are published, which they will be along with what we hope will be a definitive ruling on what constitutes an abnormal head.

For what it is worth, I have always found it unremarkable that such enormous antlers require larger than normal pedicles on which to grow!
 
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Davie

Guest
While some of the Baillie syndrome headS look really bad and have a certain deformity about them are they really freaks have they got a different gene set up is there really a malfunction some were.That to me would be were to start and the CIC chaps should have them thoroughly checked out.With regards a chef commenting saying a head should not have been put forward i feel that smacks of mines better than yours with him having shot the head previous. It should be down to the cic to comment and not just the British ones this was after all a world record.
 
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