Merseyside Police

[Lawiswar]

I recently got my first firearms certificate from Merseyside police. It is for a 6.5 x 55 and I applid for deer and vermin. When the officer came to see me he said I could not have vermin with such a large calibre as the bullet would "go strait through it". I asked about just having foxes then as I know the farmer who owns the land I stalk would quite like me to control them.
He got out a book of what appeared to be national guidelines and showed me a little chart indicating that my calibre was too large for foxes. I couldn't be bothered arguing with him as I'm not that bothered about shooting foxes and I'm on a syndicate with blokes who quite like potting them. However, I formed the view that the chart he was showing me applied if that was your sole use for the gun. Whereas I just want to pot them if I see them whilst out stalking. I suppose it's like saying you wouldn't grant a hgv licence to someone who only wanted to drive a Mindel but if you gave them a hgv licence you wouldn't mins them driving their Mondeo home from work.
Has anyone had a similar experience? If so any ideas for how to gently persuade them to see things my way at renewal time?

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Phone them up and tell then they're are incorrect. The chart is for guidance in terms of what is a good reason and it specifically in other sections says that lesser species should be allowed once the primary good reason has been established.

Easy solution though, phone them up and say you have good reason for a 22-250 then or something similar since you can't shoot fox with your 6.5. Also point out section 13.14 and 13.23 in this document. 6.5 is perfectly acceptable for fox taking into consideration you may be practicing fox control in windy conditions where necessary as per 13.23.

Home Office Guidance to the Police on Firearms Law

edit, sorry to hear they are a bit odd where you are.

 

[merlin]

I recently got my first firearms certificate from Merseyside police. It is for a 6.5 x 55 and I applid for deer and vermin. When the officer came to see me he said I could not have vermin with such a large calibre as the bullet would "go strait through it". I asked about just having foxes then as I know the farmer who owns the land I stalk would quite like me to control them.
He got out a book of what appeared to be national guidelines and showed me a little chart indicating that my calibre was too large for foxes. I couldn't be bothered arguing with him as I'm not that bothered about shooting foxes and I'm on a syndicate with blokes who quite like potting them. However, I formed the view that the chart he was showing me applied if that was your sole use for the gun. Whereas I just want to pot them if I see them whilst out stalking. I suppose it's like saying you wouldn't grant a hgv licence to someone who only wanted to drive a Mindel but if you gave them a hgv licence you wouldn't mins them driving their Mondeo home from work.
Has anyone had a similar experience? If so any ideas for how to gently persuade them to see things my way at renewal time?

I recently put a variation in for a .308 for boar and deer, an also requested that it be conditioned for fox so that if one presented itself whilst I was out stalking, I could shoot it without contravening the conditions on my ticket. I got boar and deer OK'd for the .308 no problem, but the fox was refused as .308 is "too much" for fox. I didn't mind too much as my .243 is my main fox rifle anyway, but without wanting to sound like a doom-monger I reckon you may have your work cut out....

Good luck; let us know how you get on!

ATB,

Merlin

 

[Paul at Fechan]

you here about this post code lottery and it's a fact. I know there's a few guys with .308 and bigger for fox.

 

[stag1933]

Carrion crows recently with my 6.5X55 Tikka Varminter. [Hornady 140gr Spirepoint.]
It largely depends on the conditions on your ticket and therefore your local Police force.
I have a condition worded roughly,`in the management of an estate any other wildlife.`
When I do a renewal or a variation for `good reason` I always put on `Deerstalking, control of furred and feathered vermin species, target practice and general sporting purposes`.
My permit is in for a co-terminus renewal at the moment with 60 years since it was granted. [Old Fart is 78 tomorrow.]
HWH.

 

[webby954]

yes must admit cumbria seem to have the balance pefect for fac they seem to have a grip on what the shooting people want
happy birthday for tomorrow hwh

 

[223]

ive got 308 for fox, got it on the drop of a hat = POSTCODE LOTTERY

 

[Sinistral]

This has come up before many times.

I'd welcome a post from anyone who has a Condition which says the .308 shall be used for shooting foxes as a primary purpose ..... without any other quarry ...... or an accompanying Condition on the .308.

What you get is .... " for Deer, Boar, (Fox), etc., where the larger animal is the primary quarry, and Fox is the secondary or incidental quarry.

It's all a bit of a muddle, and a very grey area. The official assumption is that you can bump off a fox while you're out stalking (an hour before dawn, or after sunset), but they don't want you out lamping with it at midnight.

Referring to the Guidance Chart .... .243, and 6.5mm are listed as suitable calibres for fox control where permission for other larger quarry has been given.
I have Fox conditioned on my .243, and 6.5x55 but not on my .270. Much depends on what else you have too, I guess.

 

[Si]

I have a condition worded roughly,`in the management of an estate any other wildlife.'

Be careful with that one... it's a standard condition for expanding ammunition, everyone has that but it doesn't neccessarily mean it applies to your rifle.
As for the crows, a 17hmr can do as much damage. It just goes to show how little FEO's know about ballistics

 

[Lawiswar]

Merlin,
You say you're in West Lancs. Do you fall under Meraeyside police too? If this is a widespread problem with Merseyside I might phone BASC and ask them to address it.

 

[Si]

When the officer came to see me he said I could not have vermin with such a large calibre as the bullet would "go strait through it"

One word.... "Backstop"

 

[223]

in the event of a silly silly silly shot which bullet would travel futher a 243 or a 308, ME THINKS 243.

BACKSTOP BACKSTOP BACKSTOP

 

[Lawiswar]

I know that and you know that but he did not. Hence the quote marks.

 

[merlin]

Merlin,
You say you're in West Lancs. Do you fall under Meraeyside police too? If this is a widespread problem with Merseyside I might phone BASC and ask them to address it.

Yes I do... (sorry, meant to put in my original reply which force I came under )

Have to say though, I've always found them to be very helpful, and I've never had a problem with them at all. As I say, the fox bit on the .308 was almost an afterthought, so I wasn't crying into my beer over it being bumped, despite it seeming to go against common sense.

 

[223]

take a very firm stance with the plod, DO YOUR HOMEWORK and dont back down, and remember you have a VALID REASON and a NEED not a WANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

they will come round to your way of thinking

 

[Orion]

It's all a bit of a muddle, and a very grey area. The official assumption is that you can bump off a fox while you're out stalking (an hour before dawn, or after sunset), but they don't want you out lamping with it at midnight.

Not neccessarily. If any animal is listed as a 'secondary' quarry, (or you have AOLQ), you are allowed to do exactly what it says on your condition - shoot that animal without restriction if it is lawful. There's no assumption - official or otherwise - that you will only do it 'whilst out stalking' etc. If there was they would put it on your FAC. FWIW this 'whilst out stalking' nonsense is even given the thumbs down by BASC, who advise applicants to refuse such a restrictive condition in one of their fact sheets.

Getting back to the OP's problem. Paul at Barony has hit the nail on the head. You need to study the HO Guidance Chapter 13. The chart the FEO showed you is only for establishing the initial 'good reason' for possession of a certain calibre/chambered firearm. Once that 'good reason' is established, (i.e. deer), there is no reason why it cannot be allowed for other quarry in columns to the left - so those of you who don't have fox, vermin or AOLQ against stalking rifles are being unduly restricted.

The relevant sections are 13.14 & 15:

13.14 “Good reason” to possess particular
firearms will generally be linked to the quarry
species found on the land concerned, for
example on a farm or estate. However,
conditions for the possession of such
firearms should allow the certificate holder to
deal with reasonable eventualities, for example
pest or game species or the humane
destruction of injured animals on the estate.

13.15 Most rifle cartridges were designed for
specific purposes but may be suitable for a
range of other quarry. The table on page 77
provides guidance on whether, for the
purposes of establishing “good reason”, a
particular calibre is suitable for shooting
certain quarry.

BASC also have a fact sheet dealing with this problem which might be helpful to those facing ill-informed FEOs. Downloadable as a .pdf from this link:

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/3D001190-BA52-43B5-91F72349FD5C6B90

Sounds as if this particular FEO is either trying to deliberately restrict the applicant or hasn't a clue about the application of the HO Guidance and/or sporting firearms. As he seems to think that a pass through on any quarry is unusual and apparently a no-no, I'd go for the latter.

Good luck with it, but get your facts sorted first and make sure you get anything from them in writing - then join SACS!

 

[Lawiswar]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I, like Merlin, am not that fussed about the vermin/fox condition, I just thought it was a bit perverse. I'm not going to do anything on my own behalf just now as I have no need to do so. I think I'll take it up with BASC though as, whilst I have always found Mersyside police very friendly and helpful, I think they need a nudge to get this right. Then, when my renewal comes around I'll try again a bit more forcefully.

 

[derek.snr]

merseyside ,one of the slowest for renewals /variations ,not very helpfull imho

 

[finnbear270]

They would be back in the stone age, well behind Cheshire, for SLOW!!!

 

[limulus]

In all respects regarding my FAC Merseyside police have been both helpful and quick in their response to issues/conditions on my FAC. Nowt but praise from me. Even Cheshire police, in my experience, have been quite quick to get land checks completed.