My new custom rifle is driving me crazy, help needed!

[randello88]

This is a long post but please take the time to read and help me because i am not understanding much..

INTRODUCTION
So, I am not a precision shooter but i have always got very good results at the range and while hunting, with shots at for from 30 to 300 meters with my other main hunting rifle, shooting from a backpack, so i was pretty confident about my abilities to shoot in field conditions and about my fundamentals. Also the few times i checked the zero of my old hunting rifle (a bergara b14 hunter) in the field i have never had issues with good bullseyes at 100 m. That rifle was the same weight and it was a .308 as well but it was shooting lower recoiling rounds.

THE GOOD
I recently put togheter a custom .308 with NF NX8 scope, hawkins rings, manners EH4 stock with élite shell (so a carbon fiber outer shell), defiance action and a 22 bartlein medium profile barrel. It weights around 10.5 lbs and i kept it reasonably light because i use it for hunting. At the range it proved many Times it can shoot amazingly well with at least 3 factory ammo, from prone and from a bench, with and without bipod. The last three times i went to the range (to check some behaviours of the rifle for example in relation to cleaning regime and dope) i was shooting some geco factory ammo which the rifle shoots regularly in one rugged hole, no joke. Many times when I shoot the third, fourth or fifth round, i can’t literally see the new hole.

THE BAD
The problem is that it seems like even very minor changes in the way i stay behind the rifle and, even more, in the rear rest or in the terrain the bipod is resting on, generate a terrible opening of groups. I didn’t manage to make it shoot well using a harris bipod on the gravel for example: the other day i wasted 40 rounds and the groups were around 1 MOA, even 1.5 with even 2 fliers, with only 2 groups around 0.5 MOA. Then i started shooting at the same target from a bench, all shots in the same hole roughly. At the end of the day, going from bench to bipod to backpack the max spread at 100 m was 2 MOA (fliers included) or 1.5 without fliers and including the slight positional changes of POI. So today i went at the range again to try to rule out issues with the scope and try to get some consistency in group sizes, this time in a controlled enviroment, and i started from a bench with 5 rounds in the same hole, then switched to bipod and again 5 almost in the same hole, then i tried the backpack, 2 terrible groups up to 2 MOA and then, when i paid more attention to consistency, one 0.7 MOA group always with the pack as a rest. Then i went back to the bipod prone and i tried to keep the rifle less ideally to see the amount of shift and a very bad group came out again (more than 2 MOA with a crazy flier). So i decided to focus more and make a good shot and again, other 2 very good group, around 0.3 MOA. Then i switched to the bench again, three shots in the same hole. I went home with even more doubts than before. When groups are bad, stringing is mostly vertical.

QUESTIONS:

1. has this much of an opening of groups to be expected when shooting with the bipod resting on gravel (maybe the worst front test for the bipod) even if the fundamentals remain decently solid? Is it normal for a rifle to be so not forgiving about shooter positions and, apparently even more, to rear and front rest? I want to understand if this has to be expected or if this rifle for some reasons is less forgiving in regard to not ideal recoil management caused by uneven or yielding terrain and a not so heavy rifle with a hot 308 load
2. during my several range trips i noticed that typically groups open up really bad when i am tired and almost never in the first 10 shots or so after i get to the range (i can’t recall a single shot in the first 10 of any range trip which was outside 0.7-1 MOA regardless of the position and the rests) after i get to the range, did you experience opening in groups for being tired after just a few shots at the range (around 12-15)? This still seems too extreme of a change in group size to me.
3. a half moa gun, assuming at least that the crosshair doesn’t move on the target, which kind of Max group spread is expected to produce in field conditions, prone and with a bipod resting on gravel or on a similar not consistent surface?
4. I would get better results and less accuracy loss using another bipod (not a harris) with more play in its legs so i can load it and this way the terrain could impact less on the accuracy of the rifle? In this case which are pros and cons of other types of bipods?
5. the last doubt is about clothing: it seems like (could be a coincidence) I shoot better with at least a sweater over the shirt (???). I never thought something like this could determine major changes in accuracy but maybe you have had similar experiences
6. Forend control: with this rifle, using a bipod, i am using the crossed arm hand hold and the result is that i have much less control on the recoil of the rifle, which even being a 308, on this rifle with a carbon fibre shell and a pretty hot factory load, is substantial

I should add that the scope seems not to be the issue, the rifle is reliable and well balanced, all screws are tight to specs and the ammo are of the same lot. Mirage is not a concern and also temperature and parallax are accounted for.

In the pic with 2 target a, you can see the average performance in range conditions (from a bipod and rear bag with crossed arms hold) at 100 m (the group on the left is 5 shots, including the clean barrel one which is the higher impact, same for the target on the right but there the shots are 4 in total. This range session was to check variation of the POI after the “fast cleaning” between hunting sessions. Here

 

[finnbear270]

Those targets show a very well put together rifle & ammuntion solution.
You sound like you may have issues between your hold and positions for your "Poorer" groups.

 

[Cottis]

Heavy rifles shot from a bipod, yeah you can get away with shooting with non trigger hand curled under butt which affords steady point of aim and the weight of the rifle keeps recoil controlled and the rifle on point.

What happens though with hunting rifles (your rifle isn't mega light but it isn't super heavy either) is that you shoot them from different positions and without recoil or forend control, I find they can shift point of impact a bit and groups can be less consistent. Groups are not important in hunting as you just need (hopefull) one shot but point of impact meeting point of aim is vital, especially when shooting out to say 300yds.

My view is that hunters should hold the forend and that then means you can shoot from a variety of field positions and still realise the same sort of precision and accuarcy irrelevant of the position. I do this from the bipod, sitting, sticks, fenceposts and all my rifles (some of which are much lighter than yours) behave in a consitent manner.

 

[HonestJohn]

It’s taken me 200 rounds of frustration to ascertain that my Schultz Larsen synthetic will shoot the most beautiful groups off a sandbag , but put it on a bipod or foam based rifle slip, etc, and it will be the ugliest shooter you’ve ever seen.

It’s too light, simple as that. It jumps and muzzle flips. I had a short light .308 Winnie as well, same issue, the .308 is particularly prone to muzzle flip.

Take my 45 year old tikka in a wood stock, it will shoot tight groups off sticks, bipod or anything else. My old .222 with 26” barrel and semi heavy profile you didn’t even need to hold basically.

You e clearly got a great rifle, but one that’s either too light or too short, OR, simply not well balanced. Check the balance point under it and see where it balances compared to the front action screw

Putting your hand on top of the scope and holding it ‘down’ might well be your answer

..and as Nathan says..hold that forend!

Hold that Forend!

 

[randello88]

Those targets show a very well put together rifle & ammuntion solution.
You sound like you may have issues between your hold and positions for your "Poorer" groups.

Thanks man, i know, that’s why it is very frustrating not to get decent performances on the field. Consider that even in controlled range conditions a slight difference in hold or rests bring these groups to even 2 inches at 100, even without me realizing it before looking at the group. Is this normal or this rifle is particularly sensitive to minor details? This would make the rifle insuitable for hunting roes beyond 200 m in my opinion and the only purpose of this build was to stretch the distance to 300-350 meters if there are good conditions to take the shot. Shouldn’t a rifle be more consistent and tolerant of minor changes in hold than that?

 

[Shootingspark]

See what Chat gpt thinks..
Excellent — this is a classic case of someone running into the reality of field shooting vs controlled bench shooting, and they’re getting tripped up by the true nature of positional shooting, bipod dynamics, and rifle forgiveness.

​

• Gravel is one of the worst surfaces for consistent bipod performance. Every shot, the legs settle slightly differently into the gravel, giving you minor but real shifts in rifle angle and point of aim.
• Vertical stringing you're seeing is very typical of inconsistent bipod loading or settling.
• This is amplified when you’re shooting a lighter hunting rifle that doesn't have the mass to absorb these small inconsistencies.

​

• From the bench, your body absorbs very little of the recoil – the bench and bags do the work.
• In field positions, you become the recoil management system. Even minor differences in shoulder pressure, grip tension, or body alignment can cause dispersion — especially vertical.
• Crossed-arm rear support isn’t giving you the best recoil control here. You might want to experiment with a firmer rear bag or bag-supported rear hand.

​

• Yes, you can absolutely start to open up after as few as 10-15 shots, especially in field positions where you’re using a lot more micro-muscle engagement.
• Tiny lapses in fundamentals — cheek weld, trigger press, breathing — start to creep in as you fatigue. This is why your first few groups of the day are tighter.

​

• In imperfect field conditions — bipod on gravel, minor inconsistencies, fatigue — seeing 1-1.5 MOA groups is very normal.
• You’re not losing "rifle accuracy" — you’re seeing your field positional fundamentals at work. Even experienced long-range hunters will expect that level of field spread.

​

• Harris bipods are good but not always forgiving on poor surfaces.
• Bipods with more cant and pan (like Atlas, MDT Ckye-Pod, Spartan Valhalla etc) allow the rifle to settle better on uneven ground and allow better load into the bipod without introducing torque or hop.
• The extra play helps avoid binding the legs into gravel which can cause those vertical fliers.
• Downside is more cost, slightly more weight — but better consistency in rough terrain.

​

• You're not crazy: a thick sweater or jacket can change the way recoil transfers into your shoulder and how your body loads the rifle.
• Consistency is key — pick a clothing thickness similar to what you wear while hunting and practice with it.

​

• The rifle itself is clearly capable (your bench and careful bipod groups prove that).
• Your focus now should be on refining your field position fundamentals:
  
  • Natural point of aim
  • Consistent shoulder pressure
  • Consistent rear bag or rear hand position
  • Learning how to "load" the bipod correctly on varying surfaces.

Final thought:
You’re already further ahead than most shooters because you’ve identified the exact issue — it's positional fundamentals & recoil management, not the rifle. Keep practicing from field positions — prone on gravel, sloped terrain, grass — and focus on consistent body position shot to shot. Your groups will start to tighten up again.

---

​

 

[finnbear270]

Is it in a lightweight build stock?, Is it bedded?

 

[HonestJohn]

In addition to my post above, how high is your scope above the bore? Shooting prone with a high scope, even with a cheek riser, makes for neck strain and in many cases, some terrible
Grouping.

 

[randello88]

Heavy rifles shot from a bipod, yeah you can get away with shooting with non trigger hand curled under butt which affords steady point of aim and the weight of the rifle keeps recoil controlled and the rifle on point.

What happens though with hunting rifles (your rifle isn't mega light but it isn't super heavy either) is that you shoot them from different positions and without recoil or forend control, I find they can shift point of impact a bit and groups can be less consistent. Groups are not important in hunting as you just need (hopefull) one shot but point of impact meeting point of aim is vital, especially when shooting out to say 300yds.

My view is that hunters should hold the forend and that then means you can shoot from a variety of field positions and still realise the same sort of precision and accuarcy irrelevant of the position. I do this from the bipod, sitting, sticks, fenceposts and all my rifles (some of which are much lighter than yours) behave in a consitent manner.

So you got to my same conclusions.. maybe a bipod i can load more than a harris could fix this? And why most american long range hunters use a crossed arms hold even with light RIfles and get apparently great performances out to way beyond 300 meters?

 

[HonestJohn]

So you got to my same conclusions.. maybe a bipod i can load more than a harris could fix this? And why most american long range hunters use a crossed arms hold even with light RIfles and get apparently great performances out to way beyond 300 meters?

Any bipod will perform poorly on hard ground. Crossed arm on long range shooters works if you have a heavy/tank of a rifle with so much weight it compensates

Try putting a bipod on a springer air rifle in 22 and shoot off gravel! Then replace with a 25lb f class rig.

One of the reasons light and short ‘hill’ rifles and mountain rifles are a bad idea, in the hills, it tends to be windy and longer shots, that’s when a well balanced rifle with a bit of weight and a 24-26” barrel will keep the sight picture dead steady at 400m on that target, and calibres/chamberings that recoil with a ‘push’ rather than ‘flip’ excel

 

[randello88]

It’s taken me 200 rounds of frustration to ascertain that my Schultz Larsen synthetic will shoot the most beautiful groups off a sandbag , but put it on a bipod or foam based rifle slip, etc, and it will be the ugliest shooter you’ve ever seen.

It’s too light, simple as that. It jumps and muzzle flips. I had a short light .308 Winnie as well, same issue, the .308 is particularly prone to muzzle flip.

Take my 45 year old tikka in a wood stock, it will shoot tight groups off sticks, bipod or anything else. My old .222 with 26” barrel and semi heavy profile you didn’t even need to hold basically.

You e clearly got a great rifle, but one that’s either too light or too short, OR, simply not well balanced. Check the balance point under it and see where it balances compared to the front action screw

Putting your hand on top of the scope and holding it ‘down’ might well be your answer

..and as Nathan says..hold that forend!

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kn...m/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html[/QUOTE]

the balance point is more or less 1.5 inches more forward than the magwell and action screw, 1 inches more forward than with the other rifle i use hunting which doesn’t have a bipod

 

[randello88]

Is it in a lightweight build stock?, Is it bedded?

It is a light weight stock but not crazy light. Manners EH4. The Bedding is a mini chassis Made by manners and included with the stock, everything was put togheter by a very good smith here in Italy

 

[randello88]

In addition to my post above, how high is your scope above the bore? Shooting prone with a high scope, even with a cheek riser, makes for neck strain and in many cases, some terrible
Grouping.

The scope Is 4.5 cm above the bore, the fact is that i shot some very good groups even from prone, the ones in the pic where shot from prone with bipod and rear bag at the range. My other rifle has a 4 cm above the bore scope but with this one, for the way the action is Made with integral rail, i couldn’t mount a 50 mm bell scope lower. I feel pretty confortable behind the rifle anyway

 

[randello88]

Any bipod will perform poorly on hard ground. Crossed arm on long range shooters works if you have a heavy/tank of a rifle with so much weight it compensates

Try putting a bipod on a springer air rifle in 22 and shoot off gravel! Then replace with a 25lb f class rig.

One of the reasons light and short ‘hill’ rifles and mountain rifles are a bad idea, in the hills, it tends to be windy and longer shots, that’s when a well balanced rifle with a bit of weight and a 24-26” barrel will keep the sight picture dead steady at 400m on that target, and calibres/chamberings that recoil with a ‘push’ rather than ‘flip’ excel

When I put this togheter i talked about it with my smith and we thought that this weight could have been good for my purposes. A rifle gravide than that would be too much for stalking. I just didn’t expect that i could get so much inconsistency.

So what is your idea to fix this?

 

[HonestJohn]

When I put this togheter i talked about it with my smith and we thought that this weight could have been good for my purposes. A rifle gravide than that would be too much for stalking. I just didn’t expect that i could get so much inconsistency.

So what is your idea to fix this?

I’ve been through it man! I know the frustration all too well.

I would either practice with a forend hold, or holding the rifle firmly down in a daypack with your left hand on top of the scope. And dont use a bipod.

Also, make sure you shoulder the rifle and don’t let it free recoil into your shoulder, even a small amount will give your vertical stringing

 

[randello88]

See what Chat gpt thinks..
Excellent — this is a classic case of someone running into the reality of field shooting vs controlled bench shooting, and they’re getting tripped up by the true nature of positional shooting, bipod dynamics, and rifle forgiveness.

​

• Gravel is one of the worst surfaces for consistent bipod performance. Every shot, the legs settle slightly differently into the gravel, giving you minor but real shifts in rifle angle and point of aim.
• Vertical stringing you're seeing is very typical of inconsistent bipod loading or settling.
• This is amplified when you’re shooting a lighter hunting rifle that doesn't have the mass to absorb these small inconsistencies.

​

• From the bench, your body absorbs very little of the recoil – the bench and bags do the work.
• In field positions, you become the recoil management system. Even minor differences in shoulder pressure, grip tension, or body alignment can cause dispersion — especially vertical.
• Crossed-arm rear support isn’t giving you the best recoil control here. You might want to experiment with a firmer rear bag or bag-supported rear hand.

​

• Yes, you can absolutely start to open up after as few as 10-15 shots, especially in field positions where you’re using a lot more micro-muscle engagement.
• Tiny lapses in fundamentals — cheek weld, trigger press, breathing — start to creep in as you fatigue. This is why your first few groups of the day are tighter.

​

• In imperfect field conditions — bipod on gravel, minor inconsistencies, fatigue — seeing 1-1.5 MOA groups is very normal.
• You’re not losing "rifle accuracy" — you’re seeing your field positional fundamentals at work. Even experienced long-range hunters will expect that level of field spread.

​

• Harris bipods are good but not always forgiving on poor surfaces.
• Bipods with more cant and pan (like Atlas, MDT Ckye-Pod, Spartan Valhalla etc) allow the rifle to settle better on uneven ground and allow better load into the bipod without introducing torque or hop.
• The extra play helps avoid binding the legs into gravel which can cause those vertical fliers.
• Downside is more cost, slightly more weight — but better consistency in rough terrain.

​

• You're not crazy: a thick sweater or jacket can change the way recoil transfers into your shoulder and how your body loads the rifle.
• Consistency is key — pick a clothing thickness similar to what you wear while hunting and practice with it.

​

• The rifle itself is clearly capable (your bench and careful bipod groups prove that).
• Your focus now should be on refining your field position fundamentals:
  • Natural point of aim
  • Consistent shoulder pressure
  • Consistent rear bag or rear hand position
  • Learning how to "load" the bipod correctly on varying surfaces.

Final thought:
You’re already further ahead than most shooters because you’ve identified the exact issue — it's positional fundamentals & recoil management, not the rifle. Keep practicing from field positions — prone on gravel, sloped terrain, grass — and focus on consistent body position shot to shot. Your groups will start to tighten up again.

---

​

I get that, the question is: is this behaviour normal for a hunting rifle? What mind of groups do you get when in the field comparing to the range? When i put togheter this rifle i didn’t want to make too many compromises on weight but at the end I did, with a rifle a little gravide than the ideal for stalking. I choose a caliber which doesn’t kick too much but it is still legal in Italy to hunt boars and bigger deer species. I thought about balance and the rifle actually feels good when i handle it and when i am behind it. maybe the only bad choice was the bipod (a bipod that can be loaded, not like a harris, most likely Will reduce this issue)

 

[HonestJohn]

Forget all about the bipod, learn to shoot without, best think you’ll ever do

 

[randello88]

I’ve been through it man! I know the frustration all too well.

I would either practice with a forend hold, or holding the rifle firmly down in a daypack with your left hand on top of the scope. And dont use a bipod.

Also, make sure you shoulder the rifle and don’t let it free recoil into your shoulder, even a small amount will give your vertical stringing

I’ve been through it man! I know the frustration all too well.

I would either practice with a forend hold, or holding the rifle firmly down in a daypack with your left hand on top of the scope. And dont use a bipod.

Also, make sure you shoulder the rifle and don’t let it free recoil into your shoulder, even a small amount will give your vertical stringing

So why many hunters use a bipod and magnum calibers with much higher recoiling RIfles? It’s unexplainable to me. Anyway, do you think a rifle setup like this is unsuitable for hunting being too light? If so i don’t understand why ultra light tikkas are so popular for example..

 

[randello88]

Forget all about the bipod, learn to shoot without, best think you’ll ever do

I never used one and my initial thought was to use it just for shots inside 150 meters (where the inconsistencies brought by the bipod wouldn’t have affected things much. Then i looked at the very good groups i was getting at the range with it and how stable the aim was and i decided to use it as the main rest. I could easily use the backpack as i always did but i got some bad groups also from the backpack even if i tried it only once, with 3, 3 shot groups. Maybe in order to use a backpack efficiently is should remote the bipod which otherwise is on the way under recoil and does who knows what, interfering in crazy ways.

 

[randello88]

Thanks guys, you are being very helpful. On an american forum they just told me to learn my fundamentals better but i think i have them decently figured out since years.
Maybe trying with another bipod which i can load could reduce the spread when shooting from uneven surfaces?