Non FTCH working labs

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
In the 80s i had a fantastic ess dog one i would trade any other dog i have owned since
One man one dog time of my life fit as a flea dogging in 5 days a week and shoot day on a sat
I once went to the cheshire game fair with him , stood watching a gundog scurry with him
Dog was sat next to its handler a **** fired a dummy thrown across a pond
Dog had to sit watch and retrieve to hand and against the clock ,clock stopped when the handler took the dummy from the dog which the judge then threw into a horsebox behind him
Methinks this would be a walk in the park as my lad was sharp as a pin and fit as a flea watched a few more combinations compete some ok some awful .
Signed up to compete sat my dog in the ring told him to stay shot was fired ,dummy thrown i watched him mark it , fetch i said , dog looked up at me did a 90 degree spin flew into the horsebox picked a dummy straight back to me sat and presented the dummy !!!!!!!
What could you say he got a round of applause i had a very red face lol

Dogs who'd have them!!!
Just an embarrassment waiting to happen.

That's a cracker thou
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
In the 80s i had a fantastic ess dog one i would trade any other dog i have owned since
One man one dog time of my life fit as a flea dogging in 5 days a week and shoot day on a sat
I once went to the cheshire game fair with him , stood watching a gundog scurry with him
Dog was sat next to its handler a **** fired a dummy thrown across a pond
Dog had to sit watch and retrieve to hand and against the clock ,clock stopped when the handler took the dummy from the dog which the judge then threw into a horsebox behind him
Methinks this would be a walk in the park as my lad was sharp as a pin and fit as a flea watched a few more combinations compete some ok some awful .
Signed up to compete sat my dog in the ring told him to stay shot was fired ,dummy thrown i watched him mark it , fetch i said , dog looked up at me did a 90 degree spin flew into the horsebox picked a dummy straight back to me sat and presented the dummy !!!!!!!
What could you say he got a round of applause i had a very red face lol

Dogs who'd have them!!!
Just an embarrassment waiting to happen.

That's a cracker thou
Dunno Stu
the handling thing I originally posted it because of the conversation with the breeder an her feeling that the dogs should be left to work stuff out more instead of people maybe trying to direct them, just as an instance shall we, say a couple years back I got roped into judging a fun day challenge "if the words fun day an challenge can be used together 😆"
Now there was a run off an both dogs got a straight blind of about 150 yards, both handlers sent the dog then must have said "go back" 2 or 3 times as the dog was going out. Would you consider that overhandling or normal ??
Think we may have spoke about training HPR's an the two sides of the coin kinda thing when I came up to yours but can't really remember if I'm honest
On the one hand it's leave them to hoon around then Brin them into line later and then the other is to train like a lab and have discipline from the off running lines cut in the grass and so forth.
I dunno matey I'm a novice compared to plenty but like to ask questions to find out opinions 👍🏻

Must admit nowadays I tend to just do my own thing and don't really care wot others think.
As long as they get the job done to a decent enough standard that does me.

Must admit if I've sent my dog on a longer go back or a tricky 1 across ditches or a fast river I will say back followed by good boy a few times my theory is to give the dog plenty off confidence it's doing the right thing and keep it going back
But u could easy argue if I spent more time training u wouldn't need to repeat the command.
I do also tend to call fairly often as I sweep throu proper thick cover and black SS woods, purely so dogs know where I am.
1 big shoot I used to go to and a mate still does is amazing how many dogs are lost for ages hours or more. Probably 1 or 2 a month, when I was there a ftw went missing took all afternoon to find it. Just got turned about in a big thick black wood.

Althou I won't normally work a dog during the drive so not to spoil/distract guns
Picked up along side folk that scream and shout at there dogs all drive, during the drive wouldn't be so bad if the dogs actually listened to them

I know when I used to be involved with the local gundog club and working tests I always volanteered as the dummy thrower as then I couldnae be a judge.
Hated judging, as I'm fairly critical of my own dogs, some folk dinar like that.
U'd see the same good handlers every time use the same few commands and obvious dog knew wot it meant.
U see the poorer handlers, say they're was a small fence to jump, back, over, up get on, different command every time the dog refused to jump it and clear dog didn't know any of the commands really meant and they just repeated them all getting louder and more frustrated.
 

Lloyd90

Well-Known Member
Dunno Stu
the handling thing I originally posted it because of the conversation with the breeder an her feeling that the dogs should be left to work stuff out more instead of people maybe trying to direct them, just as an instance shall we, say a couple years back I got roped into judging a fun day challenge "if the words fun day an challenge can be used together 😆"
Now there was a run off an both dogs got a straight blind of about 150 yards, both handlers sent the dog then must have said "go back" 2 or 3 times as the dog was going out. Would you consider that overhandling or normal ??
Think we may have spoke about training HPR's an the two sides of the coin kinda thing when I came up to yours but can't really remember if I'm honest
On the one hand it's leave them to hoon around then Brin them into line later and then the other is to train like a lab and have discipline from the off running lines cut in the grass and so forth.
I dunno matey I'm a novice compared to plenty but like to ask questions to find out opinions 👍🏻

Would you consider that a realistic retrieve for a HPR?

Assuming the dog went on point on a bird and flushed it on command, the handler / guns should have been stood at what? 10 yards max from the dog?

The bird then gets up and is shot within the next 20 yards surely... so the bird should be what? 30-40 yards? If the bird was shot at the what many Consider the extremes of shotgun range then what would that make it? 40-60 yards in rare situations?

And in these situations the dog more often than not should have pointed, flushed and marked, so would know where the bird roughly landed?


So why, on a “fun day”, would you give HPR’s 150+ yard retrieves? 🤔

I’m not a HPR person and never owned one, but are they really expected to make that sort of retrieve blind?

I’ve seen a retriever novice test where the retrieves weren’t that far. 60-70 yards maybe (they’re only novices). I did think my spaniel could have made those retrieves tbh but I’m not sure I could send him back 150+ yards without him stopping and needing to be pushed back a few times mind.



What I would say though, is that’s most likely because I have trained him to expect to find a retrieve within gun range of where he would flush. I haven’t conditioned the dog to go back 150+ yards because the vast vast vast majority of times he flushes and game is dropped, it’s going to be 10-20 yards maximum if we’re honest.

If I regularly trained him to go back 100+ yards straight I’m sure it could be done. I just don’t see the point tbh.
 

sportingspaniels

Well-Known Member
Would you consider that a realistic retrieve for a HPR?

Assuming the dog went on point on a bird and flushed it on command, the handler / guns should have been stood at what? 10 yards max from the dog?

The bird then gets up and is shot within the next 20 yards surely... so the bird should be what? 30-40 yards? If the bird was shot at the what many Consider the extremes of shotgun range then what would that make it? 40-60 yards in rare situations?

And in these situations the dog more often than not should have pointed, flushed and marked, so would know where the bird roughly landed?


So why, on a “fun day”, would you give HPR’s 150+ yard retrieves? 🤔

I’m not a HPR person and never owned one, but are they really expected to make that sort of retrieve blind?

I’ve seen a retriever novice test where the retrieves weren’t that far. 60-70 yards maybe (they’re only novices). I did think my spaniel could have made those retrieves tbh but I’m not sure I could send him back 150+ yards without him stopping and needing to be pushed back a few times mind.



What I would say though, is that’s most likely because I have trained him to expect to find a retrieve within gun range of where he would flush. I haven’t conditioned the dog to go back 150+ yards because the vast vast vast majority of times he flushes and game is dropped, it’s going to be 10-20 yards maximum if we’re honest.

If I regularly trained him to go back 100+ yards straight I’m sure it could be done. I just don’t see the point tbh.
Most Hpr’s catch the retrieve on the first bounce !!! LOL. It’s a joke so calm down ! LOL
 

sportingspaniels

Well-Known Member
The good ones catch them before they’re too high off the ground ;) 🤣
On the championship dvd I have a hare is shot and the handler sends the dog on the retrieve, I think it is a blind to be honest, if I remember correctly. After a age, on what doesn’t Look a difficult retrieve, the dog picks the hare and starts trotting back with it. The dog looks totally uninterested .The dog then gets fed up of it, spits it out, and the handler has to go and collect it. The handler and dog then continue their run !!!!! I know , simply incredible! The bitch had 3 litters . Oooppss
 

jimmy milnes

Well-Known Member
So why, on a “fun day”, would you give HPR’s 150+ yard retrieves? 🤔
Well training I've sent my 5yr old that many times and further tbh Lloyd, but on the day like I say I was mugged into doing it an tried all excuses in the book to swerve it as judging someone dogs a sure way to fall out with some folk..
I also was advised that would be the tiebreaker
Maybe it adds weight to my comment regarding training them like labs?
Cheers Jimmy
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
On the championship dvd I have a hare is shot and the handler sends the dog on the retrieve, I think it is a blind to be honest, if I remember correctly. After a age, on what doesn’t Look a difficult retrieve, the dog picks the hare and starts trotting back with it. The dog looks totally uninterested .The dog then gets fed up of it, spits it out, and the handler has to go and collect it. The handler and dog then continue their run !!!!! I know , simply incredible! The bitch had 3 litters . Oooppss

I did hear it was absolutely shocking in the past.

About the litters thou, does that come back to nature or nurture??
Was it purely bad training or bad breeding?!
Many hprs are not as natural retrievers as other breeds.
I know some modern hpr FT trainers that use Force Fetch techiques as standard on there dogs.
Some off the amatuar trainers running club training days were well behind the times compared to other styles off gun dog training.

Yet I got a copy of Tommy brechany's dvd which is very good considering how old it now is, not that different to Rory majors really.


As for retrieving distance it's 1 off those a walked up bird should never really drop that far away but u do get the odd winged bird that will get further.
Shooting on steep hillsides seen birds even at low hieght setting wings and gliding for massive distances.
Not specific to pointers but seen walked up grouse over labs and spaniels covering big distances, 1/2 mile or more, when gliding over the edge and down a steep hill side
Like I said 1 off the trails it was a 80ish m swim plus 20m up banking off thick rashes all blind and all the dogs picked to do the water test completed it no problem. I was quite impressed.
Possibly that distance was too hard?
But then again many folk will use there dogs for picking up also, so if they need to be capable of doing wot is needed to pick up where they go, ( not that I'm saying all picking up dogs need to do 150m blinds)

Mibbee the modern hpr FT brigade are trying to over compensate for being so poor in the past and sick of being the brunt of all there lab/spaniel FT buddies jokes and p*as takes.
 

sportingspaniels

Well-Known Member
I did hear it was absolutely shocking in the past.

About the litters thou, does that come back to nature or nurture??
Was it purely bad training or bad breeding?!
Many hprs are not as natural retrievers as other breeds.
I know some modern hpr FT trainers that use Force Fetch techiques as standard on there dogs.
Some off the amatuar trainers running club training days were well behind the times compared to other styles off gun dog training.

Yet I got a copy of Tommy brechany's dvd which is very good considering how old it now is, not that different to Rory majors really.


As for retrieving distance it's 1 off those a walked up bird should never really drop that far away but u do get the odd winged bird that will get further.
Shooting on steep hillsides seen birds even at low hieght setting wings and gliding for massive distances.
Not specific to pointers but seen walked up grouse over labs and spaniels covering big distances, 1/2 mile or more, when gliding over the edge and down a steep hill side
Like I said 1 off the trails it was a 80ish m swim plus 20m up banking off thick rashes all blind and all the dogs picked to do the water test completed it no problem. I was quite impressed.
Possibly that distance was too hard?
But then again many folk will use there dogs for picking up also, so if they need to be capable of doing wot is needed to pick up where they go, ( not that I'm saying all picking up dogs need to do 150m blinds)

Mibbee the modern hpr FT brigade are trying to over compensate for being so poor in the past and sick of being the brunt of all there lab/spaniel FT buddies jokes and p*as takes.
It could be nature or nurture but who knows ? Maybe it was a poor trainer maybe a dog that wouldn’t take training? I wouldn’t want a pup out of it put it that way
 

Lloyd90

Well-Known Member
Well training I've sent my 5yr old that many times and further tbh Lloyd, but on the day like I say I was mugged into doing it an tried all excuses in the book to swerve it as judging someone dogs a sure way to fall out with some folk..
I also was advised that would be the tiebreaker
Maybe it adds weight to my comment regarding training them like labs?
Cheers Jimmy


I don’t claim to be anything of an expert mate. I’ve only had 1 Lab and 3 springers so far so I’m a nobody, but I’m just trying to think about the type of hunting a HPR would do and what you are likely to come across.

Whilst you may come across the odd long retrieve, I would guess that the vast majority would retrieve in under 50 yards?

Although if anyone has HPR’s and shoots over them regularly I’m happy to be told how they often experience it. It’s all good learning.

I would potentially expect a Lab to do pong retrieves of 100+ yards, as they can be stood behind guns and picking birds flushed by other dogs.

It does sound like some people want to train their HPR’s like labs if that’s how they’re being worked?


There’s a good show on Amazon called - The Flush. You get to see the yanks work a lot of different types of dogs. They seem to use HPR’s a lot more ... from seeing the standard of their training I can only guess the reason for that is because they couldn’t train a Spaniel to stay within range of shot 🤣🤣... but you do see them shooting walked up game over HPR’s and most retrieves are probably similar to walked up shooting over spaniels...

Would love to see some or even shoot over some one day. I am tempted to go along to a HPR trial and offer to game carry to see the action but with Covid I don’t think they will be an option this year.
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
I watched some clips from America years ago. Was never impressed by them from wot I seen.

From wot I can gather they get timed to work the same beat as the last dog/handler and they set out dizzied birds in the exact same places so in theory every dog has the same number of birds in the same places.
So winner is who points shoots and retrieves all the birds the quickest

I guess in theory takes the luck needed in UK FT for game even to be on ur beat.when ur hunting.
But still not entirely fair as beat will have all previous dogs and handlers scent all throu it.


Be well worth watching a trial, I know I'm not always pro trial but great to watch wether labs spaniels or pointers althou never been to a pointer setter FT.
U will also get spring counting tests but like u said not an ideal time, but I can see this C19 lasting far longer than this season
 

Mickeydredd

Well-Known Member
Would you consider that a realistic retrieve for a HPR?


If I regularly trained him to go back 100+ yards straight I’m sure it could be done. I just don’t see the point tbh.
If the "R" stands for Retrieve then why would you not expect an HPR do long retrieves? HPRs are expected to get out decent distances whilst hunting so its not like they are spaniels that are generally always fairly close in.

As Countryyboy says, on the moor there can be some winged birds travel a long way so if you are rough shooting over your hpr then it has a job to do once the bird has been shot still.

Re the fun day, it was just a fun day so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on such a test not being the norm for an hpr, it was just a test to split dogs in a run off, you are as well to make it challenging or you could be there a while! lol

ps I thought this thread was about labs? ;)
 
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Mickeydredd

Well-Known Member
Now there was a run off an both dogs got a straight blind of about 150 yards, both handlers sent the dog then must have said "go back" 2 or 3 times as the dog was going out. Would you consider that overhandling or normal ??
I think the multiple back commands should really only be used in training a younger/inexperienced dog to give it confidence when going out on a long retrieve, after that "go back" should mean go back until you either find something or you get a further command.
 

Doric

Well-Known Member
My lab bitch is 8 and just starting to slow down a tad. My old bitch died at 11 so I'm starting to think will in advance about finding a decent line and booking a pup.

Both my labs have been very well bred - Drakeshead through and through. Both very easy to train and beautifuly obedient - however I really only want a steady and obedient dog with a reasonable nose. I don't use a dog for pheasants and I have noticed that being so highly bred comes with a price to wit both have been quite neurotic. The new one to the extent I didn't bread her.


So I'm wondering if others have experience of this or the converse?
Please dont mistake a dogs neurotic disposition to being well bred. Indeed a well bred dog should be less inclined to phisical or mental problems than one of poor breeding.
Trial and working lines are bred for nose, working instinct and trainability. Any good gundog breeder will have their dogs checked for genetic, mental and phisical abnormalities . Many people mistake good or high breeding with dogs bread for profit with little thought given to lines or inperfections.
I would urge prospective puppy owners to get the very best stock available that has been certified clear of genetic disorders. Puppy farms are the last place to look and often a litter will be bred because the bitches owner thinks she will make a good mother and other reasons other than her being phisicaly sound and an exceptional worker.
My advice is to find a gundog man of good reputation, see his bitches check out the stud dog and book a pup from a future litter.
I have been training gundogs for over fourty years and my advice is the same as you will get from any knowledgeable gundog trainer.
 

1894

Well-Known Member
The dog is as well bred as can be. Thr previous one from the same line also impeccably bred, all with great genetic tests etc. Wont say the line except to say male duck cranium :)

Both have been very very good but also neurotic I'm not going there again.
 

j200esy

Well-Known Member
I’d rather pick a dog on the way it hunts rather then it been made up to FTCH

The trial world is full of corruption, and judges helping each other out in the click, I’ve been to plenty of trials novices and Opens and Championship ,
Don’t get me wrong there are some great dogs that should be there in the trial, and then there are more dogs that shouldn’t beand they also hold the FTCH status,
I’ve seen dogs make mistakes and the judge turn a blind eye as the competitor has done a few training days with the judge , next thing you hear the dog has been made up under that judge again.

I’d just go with what I seen in front of my own eyes..
 

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