Number of bought or shot.

[Dan Newcombe]

Just to clarify, if you aren’t using the rifles then what’s the good reason for possession? I honestly can’t see the issue.
If you reload then tell them that, they aren’t stupid.
If there is a good reason then that’s what you tell the FEO when they query it (eg 5 foxes over 5 years required 5 bullets). If not then you have to ask yourself slightly why you have it.
I sometimes wonder why I have my .22 because I can easy go a year and not use it and then suddenly use it a few times.

They aren’t micro managing - in order to possess any firearm you have to give a good reason. If you then don’t fire it for 5 years then the good reason is lapsed if we are being generous and untrue if we are being less generous

 

[timbrayford]

I know a few people who in their first FAC approval were only granted authority to purchase and hold 20 rounds, and had to wait until next renewal to increase to 40.

Madness indeed.

Not just madness but incompetent and unprofessional, especially when you take into account the necessity of zeroing and practicing.

 

[timbrayford]

Just to clarify, if you aren’t using the rifles then what’s the good reason for possession? I honestly can’t see the issue.
If you reload then tell them that, they aren’t stupid.
If there is a good reason then that’s what you tell the FEO when they query it (eg 5 foxes over 5 years required 5 bullets). If not then you have to ask yourself slightly why you have it.
I sometimes wonder why I have my .22 because I can easy go a year and not use it and then suddenly use it a few times.

They aren’t micro managing - in order to possess any firearm you have to give a good reason. If you then don’t fire it for 5 years then the good reason is lapsed if we are being generous and untrue if we are being less generous

We must agree to differ on the requirements of the firearms act!

 

[Dan Newcombe]

So are you saying that we don’t need good reason for holding a firearm then, we can just ask for whatever we fancy?

 

[timbrayford]

So are you saying that we don’t need good reason for holding a firearm then, we can just ask for whatever we fancy?

No , we are disagreeing on what constitutes "Good Reason" as defined in the Firearms Act as opposed to random interpretations by FLDs which go above and beyond what the law requires, and it would appear some members of the shooting community whom are content to allow this to happen.

 

[Siggy]

What on earth has that got to do with crime prevention and ensuring public safety? Where in the firearms act does it oblige the police to micro manage the shooting activities of the law abiding?

Well, I started writing a response but decided it was too inflammatory, here is my second attempt. I would hardly call asking people to justify how much ammo they have every five years micro managing. I am not here to argue the polices side, but do you really think everyone should have more than a reasonable amount of ammo?

If you think about the crimes that need large amounts of ammo, I would agree that they are very very rare, but are catastrophic and are usually followed by politicians taking aware firearms of some kind. I don't envy the FEOs job, they are effectively goalkeepers, - they can never win a game but they can loose it.

 

[markj1]

A question or two for you.
Could an issuing force refuse a renewal on the grounds that the applicant hasn't bought or shot enough number of rounds, so therefore hasn't a good enough reason for the calibre in question?

While lack of use of a firearm with no good reason can certainly raise questions, not purchasing ammo is not in itself proof that the firearm isn't being used.

If you are attending a firing range, you can purchase rounds for use on the day and these will not be recorded in your FAC (unless you ask for it to be recorded). Then, you may be shooting rounds left over from previous years. Etc.

But, ultimately, you'll have to provide a reasonable explanation for any indication that you might not be using any of your firearms.

In my case, there were a couple of years when I was unwell, in and out of the hospital, and I didn't shoot at all. I explained it to the FET at renewal time, and they accepted it.

 

[nun_hunter]

While lack of use of a firearm with no good reason can certainly raise questions, not purchasing ammo is not in itself proof that the firearm isn't being used.

If you are attending a firing range, you can purchase rounds for use on the day and these will not be recorded in your FAC (unless you ask for it to be recorded). Then, you may be shooting rounds left over from previous years. Etc.

But, ultimately, you'll have to provide a reasonable explanation for any indication that you might not be using any of your firearms.

In my case, there were a couple of years when I was unwell, in and out of the hospital, and I didn't shoot at all. I explained it to the FET at renewal time, and they accepted it.

I think this is the crux of it. Good reason and ammo recorded on your FAC aren't necessarily linked and FEOs know that.

The issue seems to be a few people who have a rifle, don't have ammo entered on their FAC and are unable to explain why when asked. As stated there are a multitude of reasons why someone according to their FAC hasn't used a rifle by not having ammo entered on it. If you can explain that your good reason for the initial grant still stands or has changed and replaced by another suitable good reason then there is nothing to worry about.

If you're incapable of verbalising the good reason then maybe it's not really that valid and should be questioned. Similar to those who regularly ask on here for someone else to give them a good reason for another rifle in the same calibre. It's not difficult and if you can't do it yourself then you probably shouldn't be asking for someone to tell you what to say.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

No , we are disagreeing on what constitutes "Good Reason" as defined in the Firearms Act as opposed to random interpretations by FLDs which go above and beyond what the law requires, and it would appear some members of the shooting community whom are content to allow this to happen.

I see what you are saying but if you aren’t using the firearm (as suggested by the fact you aren’t using ammunition) then where’s the good reason to have it. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable way to judge a ‘need’. Notwithstanding obviously reading and proving it etc but I’ve never had an issue justifying that side of things so maybe I’m not looking at it in the round

 

[patrickt]

Yes

I politely disagree!!. How many times do you go out stalking, and you do not shoot anything, why, because there was no safe backstop, wrong gender, not part of the cull plan, too far??. where do you stop. I have not read any guidelines which refer to the amount of rounds you have to use before you are deemed suitable/have good reason??

Patrick

 

[jall55]

I politely disagree!!. How many times do you go out stalking, and you do not shoot anything, why, because there was no safe backstop, wrong gender, not part of the cull plan, too far??. where do you stop. I have not read any guidelines which refer to the amount of rounds you have to use before you are deemed suitable/have good reason??

Patrick

No problem and thats what opinions are - as i say further down - i do know of several people that have lost rifles "allegedly" because of lack of use and therefore lack of need

 

[trickie]

What about reloaders entering the manufactured ammo on their own FAC?

It’s not something I would like to do, but would prefer that to keeping receipts of components bought

 

[Trickyd66]

What about reloaders entering the manufactured ammo on their own FAC?

It’s not something I would like to do, but would prefer that to keeping receipts of components bought

Think you will find the only thing the certificate holder can write on their certificate is sign their name?

 

[M@tt]

In the target shooting community I believe that the expectation is that you shoot each firearm on at least 5 occasions / year.

How do you mean in the target shooting community? Where is this stated in legislation?

It's not in primary legislation but inferred from the HO Guidance. That states that regular use of each firearm and gives an example of 3 times per year. It is not a hard and fast rule but some FEO/FLDs see it as the defacto minimum.
ETA:

12.53 Target shooters may be expected to use their firearms fairly regularly, say three or more times a year.

The two clubs that I belong to we have to keep records of which firearms we use and when and submit them to the club every three months. No record of actual number of rounds used. The club then has a record of your usage, if, as in one of my clubs, you are unable to show usage at least three times per year this is passed onto licensing.

This is a requirement of the HO Approval. Failing to keep the club's records on members' usage and probationary training has lead to more than one club losing it's HO Approval and being closed down.

 

[M@tt]

I politely disagree!!. How many times do you go out stalking, and you do not shoot anything, why, because there was no safe backstop, wrong gender, not part of the cull plan, too far??. where do you stop. I have not read any guidelines which refer to the amount of rounds you have to use before you are deemed suitable/have good reason??

Patrick

I agree.
This was brought up about 20 years ago or more, and the requirement to show use during quarry shooting was seen as wrong, as it could encourage a shooter to take an unsafe shot or just fire at nothing just to satisfy that use stipulation.
As you mention, @patrickt , there are many reasons why I have gone out on an evening and not fired a shot.

 

[timbrayford]

I see what you are saying but if you aren’t using the firearm (as suggested by the fact you aren’t using ammunition) then where’s the good reason to have it. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable way to judge a ‘need’. Notwithstanding obviously reading and proving it etc but I’ve never had an issue justifying that side of things so maybe I’m not looking at it in the round

No "Need" in the firearms act!

 

[timbrayford]

What about reloaders entering the manufactured ammo on their own FAC?

It’s not something I would like to do, but would prefer that to keeping receipts of components bought

Reloading (and modular rifles) were unknown concepts to those who drafted the 1920 act, the prime purpose of which was to stop Georgie boy from befalling the same fate as cousins Billy and Nicky!

 

[moeggesit]

If you’re a recreational stalker and typically use less than 10 cartridges per year as example, you bought 500 cartridges when you started and have no problem with ammo inconsistency/change as a result, how often would you buy ammo? Add unlucky and see how many then. If you have gone out but shot nothing, you have still used the rifle.

Reloading as mentioned. A couple people use my kit to reload.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

No "Need" in the firearms act!

Is there not, I always thought you had to have good reason

 

[VSS]

Is there not, I always thought you had to have good reason

Yes.
"Good reason" and "need" are not the same thing.