Old shotguns -are they worth anything

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
#1
bugsy phone 090.jpg bugsy phone 091.jpg bugsy phone 098.jpg bugsy phone 101.jpg bugsy phone 099.jpg bugsy phone 093.jpg bugsy phone 094.jpg bugsy phone 095.jpg bugsy phone 096.jpg bugsy phone 097.jpg My friend has 3 old shotguns in his gunsafe and would like to get rid of them to buy his son a new model , so as I know jack s... about shotguns I thought there might be somebody on here might have heard of them and give me a clue as to whether they are to be binned or held onto. 1- Dougall and Sons side by side 12 bore with a side lever for opening the barrels.
2-J Gibson and Co side by side 12 bore with double hammers.
3-Unknown side by side 16 bore with double hammers. I m trying to find a name on it .
All the shotguns work but are in a need of a bit of maintenance , all the metalwork is engraved on all 3 of the shotguns,

Thanks Bugsy
 

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countrryboy

Well-Known Member
#2
U'd prbably be as well emailing christies? or Holts or 1 of the other auction houses that travel about specialising sporting/firearms auctions.

Dare say a lot will depend on the thickness of barrel walls and a few other things, dare say they could be damascus barrells are they resleeved, nitro proofed etc.
So probably very hard to give u an accurate price over phone or even with photos.

1 lad i know sort of collects old english guns but often picks them up for very little esp if needing a bit off work done, but he is mates with a very good gunsmith who can fix almost anything and is cheap
 

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
#3
Thanks countrryboy I will go down that road to, I also have jack .... sense of where to put this thread also, I came in from lamping very late last night and tried to find it and dear knows why I put it here:doh:.Sorry thought I had put it in the firearms.
 

landkeeper

Well-Known Member
#4
the hammer gun with the cheek piece and sling swivels looks as if it might have started life as a double rifle
i'd say your best bet would be to take them to a pukka gunsmith and get them looked at properly don't say you want to sell them though lol
 

Dalua

Well-Known Member
#7
I've never seen a shotgun with a cheek-piece, for my part :thumb:
It certainly isn't a common phenomenon in the UK. However, a 16bore (which I think that one is) with pistol-grip, cheekpiece and sling-swivels is recognisable as the standard sort of gun of the German shooting-man, probably up to the mid '60s. Not sure if Belgium, France and so on had a similar style.
 

Blackpowder

Well-Known Member
#8
It certainly isn't a common phenomenon in the UK. However, a 16bore (which I think that one is) with pistol-grip, cheekpiece and sling-swivels is recognisable as the standard sort of gun of the German shooting-man, probably up to the mid '60s. Not sure if Belgium, France and so on had a similar style.
+1

Blackpowder
 

Mr. Gain

Well-Known Member
#9
It's hard to tell from the photos (if you could take some more with better light, focus, and a macro lens, to give a better idea of the quality of finish, and maker's marks, that would help a lot), but as has been said, the 16g looks like a generic Belgian gun (most likely made at Liege).

The 12g hammergun is IMO probably a basic Birmingham gun made for a re-seller (Gibson, James, & Co., gun and fishing tackle makers, 49 Jamaica street, Glasgow.).

The best of the lot looks to be the "Dougall and Sons" side-lever gun, which appears to have finer lines and better engraving. If I were to choose one to clean up it would be that one. The maker is probably James Dalziel Dougall of Glasgow and London, a well-established name who produced some very fine guns.

J.D.Dougall. Inventor & Patentee of the Lockfast Breechloading Gun and Rifle. 59 St James Street. Piccadilly. London.SW.
James Dalziel Dougall Snr (1818-91) opened his London Shop ca. 1864. A shop in Glasgow had been open since 1760, until his son opened J D Dougall Gunmakers at Argyle Arcade. Glasgow (1841). His son James, born in 1849, also became a Gunmaker. They died within five years of each other in 1891 & 96 respectively. Another son John was meanwhile running the Scottish Branch at number 23, Gordon Street, Glasgow. Their guns using the Lockfast patent action, were used by many shooters. Later they could add 'Gun and Rifle Manufacturers to the Prince of Wales (King Edward V11) among other Royal family members. J D Dougall jr was the first chairman of the Armourers Club later The Gun Trade Association.
[adapted from: http://www.lawrences.co.uk/Catalogues/FS100512/page2.html]

More useful information here

J.D. Dougall & Son. A famous Scottish gunmaker from Glascow patentee of the famous "Lock Fast" action, patent number 1128 of 1860.

"Lefaucheux's fastening system scarcely was durable enough to handle the relatively low pressures that shotguns created much less the substantially greater stresses endemic to rifles. Systems truely stout enough for rifles did not appear until 1859 when Henry Jones patented his T-Fastener and 1860 with the appearance of James Dougall's Lock-Fast action." [Micheal McIntosh, The Big Bore Rifle, page 59]
According to McIntosh, Dougall traded With his father as J. & J. Dougall 1837 to 1841; then as James D. Dougall 1841 to 1891; and finally as J. D. Dougall & Sons 1891 to 1929. His premises were located at 53 Argyle Arcade, Glasgow from 1837 to 1850, at 23 Gordon Street Glasgow from 1850 to 1929; and in London at 59 St James Street, from 1863 to 1883, and at 8 Bennet Street St. James from 1883 to 1893.

The thread cited above also contains photos of a fine Dougall hammer gun, notes that Dougall's ledgers are no longer extant. Approximate serial number dating attributed to a Mr. Keith Woodvine of Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, is offered as follows: 1880 - approx serial no 3780; 1884 - approx serial no 4000; 1892 - approx serial no 4230.

HTH

Mr.G
 
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Bugsy

Well-Known Member
#10
Thanks to all for something to go on, these shotguns were handed to my friend through relatives and that's all he knows, the picture quality is rubbish so I will try to get clearer ones tomorrow, I will also look for any serial numbers and get back. Thanks Mr Gain for the information im no shotgun man so any insight is great.
 

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
#13
Thanks , I'm waiting on my friend to get back but I should have clearer photos by the weekend and I will get them uploaded . Regards bugsy
 

Claret_Dabbler

Well-Known Member
#14
I suspect the two hammer guns are pretty poor, as stated, the 16 bore with the cheek piece is either Belgian or German.

The Dougall on the other hand may well be interesting. I am wondering what the action might be. It is unusual to see a side pedal on an A&D boxlock.
 

Mr. Gain

Well-Known Member
#16
An interesting read to put the Dougall in context.

The most relevant bits:

The Scottish boxlocks have trademark features: an engraving style, an action detail, a shape here, a subtle style there. You will never mistake a Harkom for a Henry, a Horton for a Dougall; they all have a quality and style that raises them from the boxlocks south of the border. The great Arts and Crafts heritage of Scotland, especially strong in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, was equally strong in the gunmaking of the period and resulted in some unbelievably fine guns, with a rare harmony of art and style that has seldom been seen since.
James Dalziel Dougall was a Glasgow gunmaker who famously improved upon suspect breech-loaders introduced from France in the 1850s. His immensely well-built Lockfast hammergun made its way into the hands of the Prince of Wales and was so successful it funded a Birmingham factory and a showroom in St James’s. Like his counterparts north of the Border, he offered a unique boxlock. It featured heavy bulbous fences engraved with tight scroll and was operated by a side pedal rather than the ubiquitous top lever.
Diggory Haddoke's The British Boxlock Gun and Rifle (Merlin Uniwin, 2012), mentions Dougall's boxlocks on p.56:

View attachment 51312
 

Mr. Gain

Well-Known Member
#18
Excellent. I look forward to seeing them.

I'd not paid much attention to Dougall before, but they are clearly interesting guns.

Yours doesn't appear to have the Lockfast action (on which the side lever pivots at the knuckle), and it doesn't have the fence-less look of Haddoke's illustration (which reminds me a little of the new Marc Newson Beretta 486), but it could fairly be said to have the "heavy bulbous fences" and "side pedal" described in The Field as characteristic of its maker.
 

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
#19
Excellent. I look forward to seeing them.

I'd not paid much attention to Dougall before, but they are clearly interesting guns.

Yours doesn't appear to have the Lockfast action (on which the side lever pivots at the knuckle), and it doesn't have the fence-less look of Haddoke's illustration (which reminds me a little of the new Marc Newson Beretta 486), but it could fairly be said to have the "heavy bulbous fences" and "side pedal" described in The Field as characteristic of its maker.
Mr Gain I pm'd you,i'm having hassle trying to upload the pictures, I'm going to ask about and find out what I'm doing wrong.
 

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