PES T12

novice

Well-Known Member
#1
Apologies if this topic has been covered before. I have made a search of earlier posts, but can't come up with a definitive answer.

Just how strippable is the T12?

I have recently acquired a s/s model and still have the option of returning it if I'm not happy (it's pre-owned).

I'm loath to give it the nod before I'm entirely happy, and had been led to believe that they are strippable for cleaning. I did initially think that it was a case of unscrewing the outer case from the inner and that the knurled section at the base of the mod was for this purpose.

Several attempts later, notings moving. What am I doing wrong :oops: or has the mod 'seized' in some way? :cry:

Cheers Novice
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
#3
And if WD40 dosen't work put the mod on th radiator for a bit to heat up the outer section, rubber bands on the bottom and twist.
 

nuttyspaniel

Well-Known Member
#4
Ive still not got my scout stripped yet!! But dont try what I did and place it in boiling water!!! It took days to displace it!!

cheers
nutty
 

novice

Well-Known Member
#5
Cheers for the replies folks. I managed to get it open last night.

Sorry to hear your still having trouble with yours Nuttyspaniel. At the risk of sounding like an overnight expert, perhaps you could try the following:

-leave the mod knurled end down standing in wd40 overnight
- place the mod in a padded vice and give it a damn good twist (if like me you have a broken thumb, get your glamarous assistant to do the rough stuff ;) )
- if this doesn't do the job, try applying some heat from something like a blow torch around the outside of the mod to expand the outer case and hopefully unstick the thread (I must admit I didn't have to go to this extreme, but I received the same advice from several sources, so I'm inclined to believe it will work).

Good luck

Novice
 

BunnyDoom

Well-Known Member
#6
The T12 I have isn't stirppable - it's a sealed unit but it's stainless so doesn't matter as won't corode like a lot of mods... best not to clean them if you want them to get quiet, just stick them somewhere warm and dry when you've finished using them.

A bit of WD40 when you first get them isn't a bad idea though be sure to keep it away from your barrel or you run the risk of micro-blowing your rifling!
 

Hornet 6

Well-Known Member
#7
The T12 I have isn't stirppable - it's a sealed unit but it's stainless so doesn't matter as won't corode like a lot of mods... best not to clean them if you want them to get quiet, just stick them somewhere warm and dry when you've finished using them.

A bit of WD40 when you first get them isn't a bad idea though be sure to keep it away from your barrel or you run the risk of micro-blowing your rifling!
Wrong and right.
new ones don't strip, older ones do.

Neil. :)
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
#10
For those that don't here is a reason you should.

My PES internal tube after only 10 shots of N160 fuelled .243
don't sniff this stuff unless you want to cauterise your nose.
The stench of ammonia and I am guessing from my chemistry days some proportion of Nitric or possibly Sulphuric acid is enough the make your eyes water.
those droplets are liquid not hard deposits, they have condensed on the surface as it cooled down, despite me removing the mod when hot and blowing the bulk of the gas out.
Leave this **** on your barrel at your peril.
I tested this with a fish tank pH testing kit and it hit pH2.5-3. A strong acid.
Its no wonder it eats barrels over time



this is removed with KG1 carbon remover (or whatever the carbon remover number is to look like this:
this is what it looked like before the 10 shots as well



I then lightly oil the surface to make it easier to remove the next time.
On to the external tube, no point cleaning the outside of the inner one without addressing the inside of the outer one....




Kitchen roll tube folded in on itself with KG soaked sheet.
expands into the inside diameter and soaks up most of the crap, can be changed and repeated.
squeaky clean.



another light oiling, I use oil rather than WD40 as it stays around longer and being stainless I am less concerned about rust and its water repellent properties.
I remove the rear guide and clean the threads on all removeable parts with a lightly soaked oily toothbrush.
crunchy rotations when screwing back together means you havent cleaned it enough!

my PES silencer cost more than my two CF rifles put together.
I spent 30 mins cleaning the 243 after yesterdays excursion, why wouldnt you clean you moderator with the same attention to detail?
you will extend the life of the moderator and your barrel.
I also store my moderator on the barrel of one or other of the rifles I use it on. have done for the 5 years I have owned it. but when it is this clean it matters not
 
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BunnyDoom

Well-Known Member
#11
Literally just picked mine up - definitely isn't strippable and he said it was part of a new batch. I asked about cleaning and he said "boil it out if you want, but you don't need to as they're stainless"...
 

procee

Well-Known Member
#12
The other problem if it's stainless is that stainless steel can Gall (sp?) which basically means a sort of cold weld. We used to use stuff called 'Goop' to prevent it with stainless fittings for offshore.
 

308boy

Well-Known Member
#13
Brewsher,

I think you will find the carbon deposits will make it quieter so why clean it? I have a stainless steel exhaust on my bike and I have had it for 6 years and never had the urge. The PES is a noisy, heavy fecker at the best of times I would leave well alone
 

BunnyDoom

Well-Known Member
#14
Brewsher,

I think you will find the carbon deposits will make it quieter so why clean it? I have a stainless steel exhaust on my bike and I have had it for 6 years and never had the urge. The PES is a noisy, heavy fecker at the best of times I would leave well alone
When you say PES you're talking about the same company called MAE right? I have the newer T12 and it's 780gramms, which is in line or lighter than most of the other stuff right? It's also really quiet compared to a T8 or Wildcat... and a little bit quiter than the DM80.
 

308boy

Well-Known Member
#15
Compared to a Atec-CMM6 @ 340grams ,CMM4 @ 220gms or a standard T8 @ 640gms ??????

i wold be impressed if it can suppress anything better than 25-30DB like the others listed if so please let me know.
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
#16
Brewsher,

I think you will find the carbon deposits will make it quieter so why clean it? I have a stainless steel exhaust on my bike and I have had it for 6 years and never had the urge. The PES is a noisy, heavy fecker at the best of times I would leave well alone
thats your choice, but I think you will find that the hydrocarbons coming out of your 125cc yamaha do not contain highly acidic gas and vapour, nor are they attached to piece of metal that is known to corrode when left in close proximity to said noxious vapour.

If you can tell the difference in noise between a dirty moderator and a clean one then I would be amazed

PES and MAE are one and the same.
the only reason I got this is it is stainless, doesn't suffer from gas cutting and reduces noise very well.
personally when carrying a 7.5lb rifle, with sling, ammo, spare ammo, etc ect......I am not sure I could tell if there was 400gr shaved off the overall weight of what I am carrying.
 
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308boy

Well-Known Member
#17
thats your choice, but I think you will find that the hydrocarbons coming out of your 125cc yamaha]

says it all really, maybe you should google patronising save me getting banned. enjoy cleaning your moderator .you obviously have an engineering background with these nuggets you you share with us underlings, or maybe NOT.

Some of us have forgotten more about metallurgy then you know but then why bother with facts??
 
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BunnyDoom

Well-Known Member
#18
Compared to a Atec-CMM6 @ 340grams ,CMM4 @ 220gms or a standard T8 @ 640gms ??????

i wold be impressed if it can suppress anything better than 25-30DB like the others listed if so please let me know.
Yep it suppresses "up tp 32DB" - I think it was sporting rifle or gunmart that did a comparison with some decent audio gear and published the results - The MAE T12 and ASE Ultra came out on top. Can't seem to find it online though!
 

activeviii

Well-Known Member
#19
Wasn't Pes and MAE two differant companies. A few years back PES could not get the stainless they wanted for their moderators so in the end stopped making them. MAE then took over and have added there twist to the moderator.
I have an older PES, not MAE, it is none stripable so to speak. there is no inner sleeve either. it has a barrel nut that is machined to the barrel size and then an O'ring that sits on the barrel of rifle.
It sits on a 222 T3 and has for years. i take the PES of after every trip out and i clean the barrel of the rifle and light oil it. the rifle i will never get rid of as the previous owner didnt know the mod came off and consequently the barrle evened with a rust blister near the screw thread and a rust ring where the O'ring sits on barrel.

I will be looking for a MAE next for a 6.5x55 as i like the style as it has a smaller diameter
 

activeviii

Well-Known Member
#20
There has been a few sound moderation test done and all have come back saying the PES performed the best out of the bunch. but most have gone on to say that they are all on a par and it's what the buy likes that sell. plus not every one hears the same audio so they all sound differant.

here's a run down of the gun mart test review.

[h=2]Full Bore Moderator Test[/h]By: Bruce Potts
Introduction
Nothing in recent times causes more controversy and consternation than rifle shooters talking about what is the quietest sound moderator on the market. In my time I have had a real passion for silenced rifles of all calibres and forms. In the early days it was easy as there were only a handful to choose from, but today lots of companies are competing in the market – so which is best?
There is only one way to test a sound moderator, be that rimfire or full bore and that is to use a professional sound meter, and in this case one costing £5000 plus. Then you need to set up a test area that conforms to the internationally recognised test procedure, that is Mil STD 1474C. Only in this way can you compare each sound moderator on its own merits when tested side by side with comparable units under the same conditions from the same gun using the same ammunition and at the same location.
Hopefully these totally unbiased results should give you an insight into what is good and what is not. The only caveat is that sound moderator manufacturers seem to change their specifications daily, and some use decibel (dB) reduction figures in their advertising is not to Mil STD 1474C. In this test because of the enormity of the range of moderators, I have chosen the most common on the market and those that were willing to be tested! I have also used three differing scales of measurement that I always get asked about, only the Peak “A” weighting scale is relevant for these tests but you can see why some manufacturers quote the Impulse noise results not the Mil STD ones, because it gives a false result of the true decibel reduction.
The test regime and equipment
There are only two sound meters that perform to the correct standards. First is a Larsen Davis Laboratories and secondly the Bruel and Kjaer Type 2209 which is the one I had on test. Still this is not enough as the correct microphone attachment is essential to actually “catch” all the incredibly fast rise time of the sound produced from a full bore rifle. In fact the microphone is the most expensive single part of the machine. This allows you to catch or record the “whole” muzzle report not just part and it was correctly calibrated with certificate of proof.
To ensure that each moderator was tested identically the same .308 ammunition supplied by Winchester was 150 grain soft point with a muzzle velocity of 2689 fps from my Tikka M55 rifle with a ½ inch UNF thread. The weather was 19.6 degrees Celsius and the barometric pressure was 1015 hPa with 5% humidity and the test location was in a large grass field with a slight rising ground to the front 49 feet above sea level.
The rifle was supported on a tripod exactly 1.6metres (5ft) off the ground horizontally with another tripod arm indicating the position at which each moderator was to be placed for uniformity. Next the B&K sound meter was placed exactly 1.6m high and 1.0 metres left from the sound moderators end cap. I shot three shot groups and recorded the results.
It is important to set the meter correctly, this means recording sound as Peak “A” or “C” Weighting not as an Impulse sound as this will not record all of the sound. I did however record the impulse sound readings as well, just to show the difference and thus the confusion when some manufacturers display their results!
The Results
Brace yourself, there are some really interesting results here. I have arranged them in a table so you can compare each moderator, maker, dimensions and three dB readings of which the “A” weighting is the correct one to use. The net reduction shows actual reduction in decibels so you can compare each moderator like for like.
The readings show three shots in order and so you can see if any of the sound moderators suffer from the dreaded first round “pop” problem where initial oxygen in the sound moderator is burnt increasing the dB reading.
The tests
Remember a .308 rifle with factory ammunition is a hard test for a sound moderator and smaller centrefire such as .223 will be more efficient and have greater net dB reduction results. That’s why you see a range of dB reduction figures quoted by manufacturers in their literature i.e. 21-25dB.
You need to take the “A” weighting figure and not the Impulse sound as it’s like comparing the sound with and without ear defenders on, you will get a false result.
Firstly, in my view, it is not all about the biggest dB reduction as the size, weight, cost and material used in manufacture are all important. There is no point having the quietest moderator to find it is too long or heavy for your rifle. Study the results and see what would suit your own style of shooting.
[h=3]Related articles[/h]

Also remember that manufacturers are always competing with each other to gain a few more dB reductions, reduce cost and saving weight from the opposition, so these results are correct as of Jan 2011, and things may have changed already!
First of all an unsuppressed .308 report was recorded as the bench mark standard which gave 167.8 dB result for the “A” Weighting result, comparable to military tests results. This was nearly the same for the “C” Weighting results at 167.9 Db but the Impulse sound was only 150.2 dB which instantly shows you that Impulse sound results are not recording ‘all’ the sound. I only tested some moderators on “C” Weighting as there was little difference from the “A” Weighting but it gives you an idea of what’s going on.
Best noise reduction was jointly held by the MAE T12 and the Jet Z Compact at 26 dB reduction in noise, very good for a 21 inch .308 rifle with full power factory loads. The MAE T12 is an over the barrel design and stainless steel whilst the Jet Z Compact is steel construction and muzzle mounted so the choice is yours, look at price, size and weight to make up your mind.
Second quietest were the Wildcat Predator T12 over barrel and the muzzle mounted LEI Compact , just goes to show the older design muzzle cans can really keep their own against newer but not necessarily better designs. A reduction of 25 dB is very good but once again, check out the size, weight and cost difference.
Third place went to the North Star moderator at 24 dB reduction and this is a stainless steel over the barrel type without a rear bushing so is conveniently fitted to most types of rifle barrel.
There were three moderators in fourth place at 23 dB reduction , the MAE 30STS muzzle can, ASE Utra S5 muzzle can and Reflex T8 over the barrel , again very interesting results from differing designs and materials used.
Finally fifth place with 21 dB reduction is jointly awarded to the A-Tec CMM aluminium muzzle can and Brugget and Thomet steel muzzle can. There is a big weight difference between each moderator and price, and the A-Tec comes apart for cleaning whilst the B&T is a sealed unit.
Conclusions
In reality you can see that the actual decibel reductions are quite close across the board, so I suspect your own choice will be dictated on how big is your wallet, whether you want as short a rifle overall length as possible, or if the corrosion resistant properties of stainless steel are important to you, or do you want the lightest weight possible? All these are important factors and should be weighed up against the raw sound reduction data. I hope these tests help you make up your mind.
Contacts
Ace Utra, Northstar, Jet Z Compact, S5, A-Tec CMM, Reflex T8 (Jackson Rifles tel.01644 470223)
MAE 30STS & T12 (JMS Arms tel.01444 400126, 07771 962121)
Predator T12, Wildcat (UK Custom Shop tel.01905 797060)
LEI (LEI tel. 01727 826607)
Brugger and Thomet (Viking Arms tel.01423 780810)
 

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