Police 'spot' checks

10pm they turned up at my place once. Years ago now like, but I was working and the wife refused them entry, Never heard back from them about it. They have dropped in unnanounced once, but I was about, and was feeling forgiving so showed them what they wanted to see,, until .... I removed a shotgun, and broke it to remove the snapcaps, the young chap went ! ooooh thats a bit dangerous !! so I showed them out, stating that they had to be at least knowledgeable on the subject if they were to determine my fitness to possess firearms. The older chap just shook his head.
 
ha ha classic!

I saw the FEO and his young lad describe a .22lr of my Father's as "this one is obviously a .410, due to the thinner barrel"....
 
you should have replied "no, that would be a reckless driver"...they probably wouldn't even get that one though..

should they not have some sort of training or prior knowledge of the subject they monitor/regulate?
 
Powers of entry by the fire service are somewhat limited - I take it that you are refering to powers under the Fire & Rescue Services Act. In actual fact most firefighters are often on a premises illegally once a fire is extinguished unless invited to stay by the occupiers. Powers under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Act do not normally extend to private domestic dwellings.

There is also usually a facility under whatever act as regards powers of entry that the relevant officer can take with him other persons or services to assist him with his investigations. An example of this would be a housing officer who has gained access under the housing act (notice normally required) may take with him a fire officer, or a fire officer entering a relevant premises under the fire safety order may take with him police officers or licensing officers from the local authority.


I agree that there is possibly much more to this story than originally told.

Yes agreed and agree with what Orion said too,clearly police would be able to access in some situations though was trying to keep as brief as possibe and to the tread...ie just turning up with a knock knock to check on your guns as such without going into detail. Funnily enough I had a the same argument with my local council who told me they could enter my property (private) at any time using council tax laws....I put them right as they can only look around your property not enter it.
 
Hi,

apologies if this subject has been covered previously.
However, met a gentleman last week who had recently received a visit from West Yorkshire Police. They turned up at his home, with no notice, to check his firearms and premises. He wasn't home. His mother showed them his cabinets and they then rang him to request his presence so that they could have them opened. On his return they did a comprehensive check, from ammunition count to cabinet fixing and found nothing amiss. The police said they were then off to carry out the same exercise on another FAC holder. So am assuming not a one off.
Is this now normal practise?
Understand that it is perfectly legal but I thought that the police had enough problems with staffing to fit in the one check every 5 years?
Your comments please.

There is no requirement to let police into your home for anything other than a lawful action given by parliament e.g. to execute a warrant or carry out duties such as to prevent of a breach of the peace, or to investigate where a crime has believed to have happened or is about to happen in order to prevent it for example.

For firearms spot checks, you are pefectly entitled to say no, its inconvenient and to make an appointment unless they beleive that a crime has been committed such as a breach of the legislation e.g. they have found your shotgun in a field because you left it there.

They are civilians, and no more; carrying out the duties that parliament gave them and only when those powers are allowed to be effected .

Whenever they knock they must say why they are there and what they wish to achieve under what Act unless its a freindly hello visit for renewal thats not been arranged in order to help you. Often this is a result of making sue of the day or a spare slot and you may chose as to whether its ceonvienent to help them help your renewal or delay until another day.
 
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when issued with my FAC some 12 years ago , i was under the impression i could be visited at any time and my security etc checked
 
Yes too many authorities overstep the mark with regard to powers of entry and usually get away with it because most of us don't know any better. Too much reliance upon the "Bluff and persausion Act of 1066". No need to be obstructive but you should always politely ask under what authority someone is demmanding access and ask to see any written authority they may have.
 
There appear to be rather a lot of folk who can come in or on without a warrant....

Barging In: Estimated 20,000 Council Officers in Britain Able to Enter Private Property | Big Brother Watch

But the erstwhile Coalition is intent on reducing that number ...

New powers of entry into private homes created by ConDem Coalition | News Truth, The Simple Truth

But just not yet........:)

And for all the toff-bashers on the site please note that the Lords voted to cut the number right back and it is the peasants in the Commons who are dragging their feet!
 
As a few on here know, Im a Local authority BCO,
I have an authority to enter premises, at all reasonable hours,

If there is a dangerous building I cannot wait for a magistrate to ok things, I can and have collected a couple of police officers from the station to accompany me.

however in almost 40 years I have only had to have immediate access 3 times.
 
Gents

Perhaps the attached extract from the Firearms Act might enlighten some of you to the misconceptions that Police do not have powers and that an offence has to have been committed before they can deal.

[h=3]47 Powers of constables to stop and search.E+W+S[/h](1)A constable may require any person whom he has reasonable cause to suspect—
(b)to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section,
to hand over the firearm or any ammunition for examination by the constable.
(2)It is an offence for a person having a firearm or ammunition with him to fail to hand it over when required to do so by a constable under subsection (1) of this section.
(3)If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect a person of having a firearm with him in a public place, or to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section, the constable may search that person and may detain him for the purpose of doing so.
(5)For the purpose of exercising the powers conferred by this section a constable may enter any place.

So, if your partner/spouse knows the whereabouts of the keys or has access to the FAC holder's guns then this is an offence as they are failing to meet the Conditions placed on the FAC. The act of the 3rd party going to the cabinet does not have to occur as the offence has already been committed as the firearms and ammunition would not have been stored to prevent access by an unauthorised person. Offence about to be committed.

An FAC holder arrives home and leaves the firearm and ammunition somewhere other than in the gun cabinet to be put away later after cleaning. Offence about to be committed as unauthorised persons could have access contrary to the Condition on the FAC.

The test here is what consitutes 'reasonable cause to suspect' and IMHO I would agree that 'cold calling' does not appear to be reasonable cause to suspect, however, I am sure the legal experts could summons a legal argument to support the cause.



 
I would suggest that this for the law abiding gun owner is "unreasonable cause" as there must have been a cause for the
m to have turned up. Otherwise we are all being judged as criminals without cause to do so.
 
Gents

Perhaps the attached extract from the Firearms Act might enlighten some of you to the misconceptions that Police do not have powers and that an offence has to have been committed before they can deal.

47 Powers of constables to stop and search.E+W+S

(1)A constable may require any person whom he has reasonable cause to suspect—
(b)to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section,
to hand over the firearm or any ammunition for examination by the constable.
(2)It is an offence for a person having a firearm or ammunition with him to fail to hand it over when required to do so by a constable under subsection (1) of this section.
(3)If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect a person of having a firearm with him in a public place, or to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section, the constable may search that person and may detain him for the purpose of doing so.
(5)For the purpose of exercising the powers conferred by this section a constable may enter any place.

So, if your partner/spouse knows the whereabouts of the keys or has access to the FAC holder's guns then this is an offence as they are failing to meet the Conditions placed on the FAC. The act of the 3rd party going to the cabinet does not have to occur as the offence has already been committed as the firearms and ammunition would not have been stored to prevent access by an unauthorised person. Offence about to be committed.

An FAC holder arrives home and leaves the firearm and ammunition somewhere other than in the gun cabinet to be put away later after cleaning. Offence about to be committed as unauthorised persons could have access contrary to the Condition on the FAC.

The test here is what consitutes 'reasonable cause to suspect' and IMHO I would agree that 'cold calling' does not appear to be reasonable cause to suspect, however, I am sure the legal experts could summons a legal argument to support the cause.




Seeing as my house is not a public place, none of the above is applicable.... if they need to get a warrant to enter a suspected drug dealers house or a travellers site, then they sure as hell ain't coming into my house without one.
 
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Gents

Perhaps the attached extract from the Firearms Act might enlighten some of you to the misconceptions that Police do not have powers and that an offence has to have been committed before they can deal.

47 Powers of constables to stop and search.E+W+S

(1)A constable may require any person whom he has reasonable cause to suspect—
(b)to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section,
to hand over the firearm or any ammunition for examination by the constable.
(2)It is an offence for a person having a firearm or ammunition with him to fail to hand it over when required to do so by a constable under subsection (1) of this section.
(3)If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect a person of having a firearm with him in a public place, or to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section, the constable may search that person and may detain him for the purpose of doing so.
(5)For the purpose of exercising the powers conferred by this section a constable may enter any place.

So, if your partner/spouse knows the whereabouts of the keys or has access to the FAC holder's guns then this is an offence as they are failing to meet the Conditions placed on the FAC. The act of the 3rd party going to the cabinet does not have to occur as the offence has already been committed as the firearms and ammunition would not have been stored to prevent access by an unauthorised person. Offence about to be committed.

An FAC holder arrives home and leaves the firearm and ammunition somewhere other than in the gun cabinet to be put away later after cleaning. Offence about to be committed as unauthorised persons could have access contrary to the Condition on the FAC.

The test here is what consitutes 'reasonable cause to suspect' and IMHO I would agree that 'cold calling' does not appear to be reasonable cause to suspect, however, I am sure the legal experts could summons a legal argument to support the cause.




The crucial aspect of this appears to be the word Reasonable, and although not a legal expert I believe the only definition in law for the term reasonable is the 'Wednesbury Reasonableness test' Associated Provincial Picture Houses Ltd. v Wednesbury Corporation 1947.

The application of a Wednesbury Reasonableness test in the circumstances described, I fear might support the actions of the Police, given that the detection of the Offence might only be possible by means of spot checks. However if the spot check was to be carried out during unsociable hours eg. 10pm then the results of the test may be that for the police authority to call unannounced without any previous intelligence or report, to the home of a person who is, in lawfull posession having met the requirements of the firearms act to be granted a certificate in the first place, just on the off chance they may detect an offence, I feel is more likely to be deemed Wednesbury unreasonable.

Perhaps someone with a legal background might be able to shine a more informed light on it.
 
Hi all,


Open FAC holder for both deer and fox on .308, .243 and .223 along with .22lr and .17HMR ground game and vermin. Shotguns also.

Arrived home on a Tuesday afternoon rather ironically with a new rifle collected from Gun Shop Rugby. Had been indoors for no more than 10 minutes waiting for the kettle to boil after a two and a half hour slog down the M1 and onto the M25 and back into Surrey, when a uniformed PC accompanied with a gentleman whom I recognised as one of Surrey Constabulary’s FEOs walked past the window. So, went outside to say, “Hello.” Well, the upshot is that they wanted to do a Firearms check. “Not a problem, come indoors and have a tea or coffee” says I

So we looked at all of my rifles, suppressors, moderators and shotguns everything in order I believe, bolts separate and the like, all the while with both my wife and three-and-a-half-year-old daughter present very happy and not worried in the least and my daughter being rather taken with the PC’s hat that incidentally she wore the whole of the time.

The interview was perfectly professional, respectful and polite, at the same time business-like and took about an hour and a half. Talked about lots of things including recent events north of the border and the impact that that may have in the future on legitimate FAC holders.
Now here comes the good part. One of the questions that was asked of me was, “Did I have or have I had any problems with any of my neighbours”? And answered in truth, “Yes” and I named her. Also, that we have had and still have several different court cases pending over such issues as parking, our garage, repairs or rather lack of repairs to our period property, maintenance and such like the first one of which we won for several thousand pounds along with costs. The individual we are talking about who, had been a close friend of my wife for a number of years whom we had recently fallen out with in part over these issues had made some allegation or a call of concern involving myself and my firearms exactly for what they could not say, and, understandably so. This is a woman that suffers with depression, is on medication and, this is the best bit...........she’s a Priest. I guess “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” Exodus 20:16 has no meaning to a person of the Church?

All joking aside I had indeed mentioned this to my Barrister some time ago which was minuted in his notes that I was indeed fearful of the possibility that a person here might do something like this as we have lived here for fifteen years and the other eleven people that live within the building of which six are Directors that we currently have these ongoing issues with know of my interests and pursuits and, that I possess firearms.
Other neighbours that live both in the road and surrounding area are great friends, and up until this we have never had so much as a crossed word with anybody.

I have to say however in fairness to Surrey Police that during the interview, at no time was I made to feel that I had done anything wrong and that it was just something that they had to do as a matter of routine and would consequently report back to Police Headquarters.

Now I’ve been dealing with the Police and the local authorities for many years having had Nightclubs and Bars and still hold the belief that it is better in the long run to be as cooperative as possible all the while being careful. Cover yourself, follow up in writing or, Email and ask for a response. Maybe we are incredibly fortunate in Surrey for the FEO’s that we have here?


I know that some of you are thinking, “Two sides to every coin.” I would be too! But please believe me this is exactly how it both is and was. I just thought that I would share this with you because of the relationship to the original post. By the way this all happened back in November 2010.


Mickey308
 
Hopefully the gentleman concerned is a BASC member, if he is I suggest he has a chat with their head firearms man, I'm sure he would be very interested to hear the story

I doubt BASC would do any thing to help in my experience contact NGO would be better.

Jimbo
 
That however does not mean they cannot attend unannounced and 'ask' to be allowed in to check.

Whether you extend them that courtesy is a matter for the individual concerned.


If it was at a sociable hour ! (not the middle of the night) as you say.

I for one being a law abiding gun owner, would'nt have an issue, to be honest how many would refuse them entry. ?
 
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As a few on here know, Im a Local authority BCO,
I have an authority to enter premises, at all reasonable hours,

If there is a dangerous building I cannot wait for a magistrate to ok things, I can and have collected a couple of police officers from the station to accompany me.

however in almost 40 years I have only had to have immediate access 3 times.

Hi Bobt

Maybe we have met at CPD seminars as like you i was a Local Authority area Buiding Control Surveyor now retired with the same powers to enter dangerous buildings prior to retirement.

Jimbo
 
Never heard of that either, as far as I am aware only 3 groups can enter your property with no notice. Customs and Excise, Gas board and only if life is at risk and the fire service. The latter doesnt have to be your property on fire it could be an adjacent property.

Indeed, they would need a warrant similar to the MCA. I believe this is a Royal Warrant and the Police do not have these.
 
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