Powder choices

Danny Treacy

Well-Known Member
Hi All,

I want to start reloading for two calibres and applications that are new to me.

1. .308, ranges from 100-1000 yards. Rifle 24" barrel 1:10 twist

2. .223, ranges from 100 - 500 yards. Rifle 18" barrel 1:8 twist

I have looked at various forums on powders and three seem to come up often:

N150 - though my concern is that this may be best for longer barrels, such as 30", due to being slower than the one below?

N140 - this may be a good choice for both my .308 and .223 barrel length, any thoughts?

RS52 - this seems to be good for .308, but not sure if it would be good for the .223?

So, ideally it would be nice to get a one size suits all powder for both applications, though I know that might not be an option, and that's fine of course.

If anyone has any real world experience of running similar guns with these, or other recommended powders, that would be great.

Many thanks!

Danny.
 
Cfe223 works well in both and appears to be readily available. You'd just need to be cautious about going up at max load and hot weather because it has been known to spike pressure
 
N140 for the 308 & N130 for the 223 (you could use N120 for the 223 but be careful as it can be a bit sensitive to pressure if you have slightly smaller case capacity ie mixing brass but not adjusting the load).

P.S. you will need to do some trials with bullets & bullet weights to reliably get a load that works at 1000 yards in the 308. A good starting point would be 175gn bullets instead of the usual 155gn which very likely will be going through the transonic region by the time they get past 900 yards.
 
N140 will work in both with mid range target bullets (168 / 69 SMK’s) N150 might be slightly better on velocity with .308 but not suitable for .223 until you get to the heavies.
 
I suspect that in trying to get the best for both, you may end up with the opposite.
The best powder selection system that I've seen used and demonstrated is by Tim at Little Crow Gunworks.
This is part 12 of an outstanding series of videos, which he produced.
His explanation of analysis of the TREND during powder testing over group size is.......enlightening.
He is unusual as an American, in recommending Vhitavouri powders as the go to choice for reloading, often they are partisan, bordering on xenophobic.
 
I use N140 in .308 with 168 SMK’s and also in .223 using 69gr SMK.

I have lots of other powder options to choose from but the above combination works, both giving exceptional accuracy and consistency.

Barrels are 20” .308 and 16” .223 (shortened recently from 20”)
 
N150 might be slightly better on velocity with .308 but not suitable for .223 until you get to the heavies.

Fine for 308 especially 168gn and heavier; too slow-burning and too bulky for 223 even with 77gn bullets. Just about suitable for 85gn and over match bullets in 223 but only in a long-freebore match chamber that sees COALs way above the standard SAAMI 2.26-inches.

1. .308, ranges from 100-1000 yards. Rifle 24" barrel 1:10 twist

2. .223, ranges from 100 - 500 yards. Rifle 18" barrel 1:8 twist

What bullet weights / models in the two cartridges. What form does the rifle chamber have in terms of freebore / COAL? Replies are meaningless without knowing these factors. For instance, I see Viht N120 / 130 recommended in one response for the 223. Completely unsuitable powders for the heavier bullets.

I range-tested suitable powders a while back in the light of the loss of Hodgdon VarGet and H4895 and covered all available (at that time) suitable tubular / extruded grades using a 223 long-freebore chamber match rifle with bullets seated out ca. 150 thou' longer than SAAMI. Your rifle's actual freebore length is crucial with this cartridge and heavy bullets. (You can shoot 52-55s at 500 yards, but believe me when I say that wind induced movement is drastic!)

Here's a link to the report on four of the six Viht powders range-tested.

reach-out 7 – eu compliant powders by laurie holland

I am using N150 with 120-140gr pills in 7mm-08 (same case as 308)with 20" barrel and for me it's the best


7mm-08 has the same basic case, but is matched to a smaller bore area resulting in a higher case-capacity to bore ratio for which slower burning powders are better.
 
Fine for 308 especially 168gn and heavier; too slow-burning and too bulky for 223 even with 77gn bullets. Just about suitable for 85gn and over match bullets in 223 but only in a long-freebore match chamber that sees COALs way above the standard SAAMI 2.26-inches.



What bullet weights / models in the two cartridges. What form does the rifle chamber have in terms of freebore / COAL? Replies are meaningless without knowing these factors. For instance, I see Viht N120 / 130 recommended in one response for the 223. Completely unsuitable powders for the heavier bullets.

I range-tested suitable powders a while back in the light of the loss of Hodgdon VarGet and H4895 and covered all available (at that time) suitable tubular / extruded grades using a 223 long-freebore chamber match rifle with bullets seated out ca. 150 thou' longer than SAAMI. Your rifle's actual freebore length is crucial with this cartridge and heavy bullets. (You can shoot 52-55s at 500 yards, but believe me when I say that wind induced movement is drastic!)

Here's a link to the report on four of the six Viht powders range-tested.

reach-out 7 – eu compliant powders by laurie holland




7mm-08 has the same basic case, but is matched to a smaller bore area resulting in a higher case-capacity to bore ratio for which slower burning powders are better.
Good point- I’m looking at 69gr or 75gr bullets for .223

For .308 I was planning on testing 165gr, 180gr and maybe even 200gr.

I do not have the guns yet, so I have not yet been able to measure the amount of freebore/coal. Both rifles are mag fed, so that will be something to consider also.

Thanks,
Danny.
 
What Laurie said, but I do use RS52 for 223 with those weight bullets..... our 223 is single shot, has a 760mm 8 twist barrel, and col is 63.0mm with 69gn TMK's, and 65.2mm with 75gn Horn. ELD-M's.
I've also tried RS40, which is a faster powder that pushes the 69gn bullets along very briskly.
I also used RS52 with 155gn Scenars in my 308, which had a 760mm 12 twist barrel, with very good results out to 1000yds.

D.
 
Last edited:
Good point- I’m looking at 69gr or 75gr bullets for .223

For .308 I was planning on testing 165gr, 180gr and maybe even 200gr.

I do not have the guns yet, so I have not yet been able to measure the amount of freebore/coal. Both rifles are mag fed, so that will be something to consider also.

Thanks,
Danny.


If mag-fed, you're usually restricted to the SAAMI max COALs, at best a little more irrespective of the rifle's freebore. In 223, the 69gn Sierra MK and its Lapua and other equivalents are designed for 2.26-inch COALs and magazine feed and that's what powder manufacturers' loads data show. N140 is a tad too bulky for 69s at this COAL. You can use it, but you're talking really compressed charges and a great deal of charge column decompression pressure, so neck tension has to be very high otherwise the bullet won't retain its original / proper seating position. When I shot lots of these bullets yonks ago in an AR-15 based (manual) rifle, I invariably loaded them with N135. Even with this faster burning powder and its lower charges, top loads saw some heavy charge compression and you could both hear and feel (through the press handle) the powder kernels crunch as the bullet went fully in. Not nice, and I never felt comfortable with this.

One tip for this kind of load combination is a powder funnel with a much longer drop tube than the half-inch stub on most standard models. Then use a very slow dribble pour, better still with the case/funnel angled to get a swirl pattern like water draining from a sink. I use the 5.25-inch tube Forster Universal funnel - very expensive but it works; useful in many 308 Win combinations too.

75gn bullets in the 223 are often more problematic and depend on individual model design as some are much longer than others. Long acetyl-tipped match bullets cannot usually be seated to magazine length as they end up far too deeply seated in the case. (Same applies but even more so to virtually all 80gn bullets, although some are just usable.) The 77gn Sierra MK is however, as with the 69gn model, designed for 2.26 COAL, but is again seated really, really deep with all that implies for powder charge compression. Same applies to its Berger, Lapua etc competitors. I'd advise against the [plastic] 'tipped' models such as the Sierra 69 and 77gn TMKs as they have to be seated deeper still due to the tip length, don't do a great deal for ballistic performance and cost another tenner a box. (Bling factor is high which is no doubt why they sell well!) Both N135 and N140 work fine in these loads, N540 too if you want some extra fps MV and don't worry about long barrel life.

Both 69 and 77gn bullets will perform fine in range-use at 500 yards, albeit with considerably greater windage than equivalent 308 Win loads and bullets.

On 308, it really depends on what you're shooting at with what kind of bullet. Is this paper or live quarry? What barrel length do you envisage? You can use some 180 and 200gn expanding lead-core, so soon to be banned, bullets in 308 at mag length, but I'll wager that several knowledgeable stalkers on this form will tell you to forget 200s and even 180s at 308 Win performance as it's not a big enough case / charge to produce high enough velocities. 165s are all sporting bullets; match models in this category are 168-175gn. There is only a single commonly found 180gn match design I can think of, and it's not one I'd recommend. (What am I saying? I've got 400 + 180gn Sierra MKs I'll never use and I'll sell them to you cheap - I'm serious, and they really are the finest things since sliced bread was introduced! :) :) :) )

For 500 yard range use on paper, the choice is huge, but the easiest option for 500 yards is to load a decent 155gn match bullet, again better without an acetyl tip if mag-fed. My favourite here is the 155.5gn Berger BT, but you need to search for anybody stocking bullets from this manufacturer then pay a lot (£95.95 / 100 is the UK distributor's RRP for this model). Sierras (two versions plus one tipped) are cheaper. For this distance, there is a lot of choice with old favourites such as the Sierra and Hornady 168gn models; Lapua 167gn plus various 175s from all the makers that are usually easy to get to shoot well. Some people claim to do well in this sort of shooting with the budget PPU match products - can't comment personally.

For 155-175s, Viht N140 does very well, as does the slightly slower burning Reload Swiss RS50 (and its 'hot' stablemate RS52). For 175s, I personally prefer N150, but if you're keen to stick to one powder for both cartridges, it has to be N140 and may have to be N135+N140 depending on bullet choice.
 
N140 - this may be a good choice for both my .308 and .223 barrel length, any thoughts?
I've got a really good load for my .308 which i need to fine tune a little bit. (Currently using 42.0 grains to throw a 168gr SMK BTHP into a sub MOA group at 100y)

I'll also be using the N140 for my .303 british too (Once the dies turn up)
 
If mag-fed, you're usually restricted to the SAAMI max COALs, at best a little more irrespective of the rifle's freebore. In 223, the 69gn Sierra MK and its Lapua and other equivalents are designed for 2.26-inch COALs and magazine feed and that's what powder manufacturers' loads data show. N140 is a tad too bulky for 69s at this COAL. You can use it, but you're talking really compressed charges and a great deal of charge column decompression pressure, so neck tension has to be very high otherwise the bullet won't retain its original / proper seating position. When I shot lots of these bullets yonks ago in an AR-15 based (manual) rifle, I invariably loaded them with N135. Even with this faster burning powder and its lower charges, top loads saw some heavy charge compression and you could both hear and feel (through the press handle) the powder kernels crunch as the bullet went fully in. Not nice, and I never felt comfortable with this.

One tip for this kind of load combination is a powder funnel with a much longer drop tube than the half-inch stub on most standard models. Then use a very slow dribble pour, better still with the case/funnel angled to get a swirl pattern like water draining from a sink. I use the 5.25-inch tube Forster Universal funnel - very expensive but it works; useful in many 308 Win combinations too.

75gn bullets in the 223 are often more problematic and depend on individual model design as some are much longer than others. Long acetyl-tipped match bullets cannot usually be seated to magazine length as they end up far too deeply seated in the case. (Same applies but even more so to virtually all 80gn bullets, although some are just usable.) The 77gn Sierra MK is however, as with the 69gn model, designed for 2.26 COAL, but is again seated really, really deep with all that implies for powder charge compression. Same applies to its Berger, Lapua etc competitors. I'd advise against the [plastic] 'tipped' models such as the Sierra 69 and 77gn TMKs as they have to be seated deeper still due to the tip length, don't do a great deal for ballistic performance and cost another tenner a box. (Bling factor is high which is no doubt why they sell well!) Both N135 and N140 work fine in these loads, N540 too if you want some extra fps MV and don't worry about long barrel life.

Both 69 and 77gn bullets will perform fine in range-use at 500 yards, albeit with considerably greater windage than equivalent 308 Win loads and bullets.

On 308, it really depends on what you're shooting at with what kind of bullet. Is this paper or live quarry? What barrel length do you envisage? You can use some 180 and 200gn expanding lead-core, so soon to be banned, bullets in 308 at mag length, but I'll wager that several knowledgeable stalkers on this form will tell you to forget 200s and even 180s at 308 Win performance as it's not a big enough case / charge to produce high enough velocities. 165s are all sporting bullets; match models in this category are 168-175gn. There is only a single commonly found 180gn match design I can think of, and it's not one I'd recommend. (What am I saying? I've got 400 + 180gn Sierra MKs I'll never use and I'll sell them to you cheap - I'm serious, and they really are the finest things since sliced bread was introduced! :) :) :) )

For 500 yard range use on paper, the choice is huge, but the easiest option for 500 yards is to load a decent 155gn match bullet, again better without an acetyl tip if mag-fed. My favourite here is the 155.5gn Berger BT, but you need to search for anybody stocking bullets from this manufacturer then pay a lot (£95.95 / 100 is the UK distributor's RRP for this model). Sierras (two versions plus one tipped) are cheaper. For this distance, there is a lot of choice with old favourites such as the Sierra and Hornady 168gn models; Lapua 167gn plus various 175s from all the makers that are usually easy to get to shoot well. Some people claim to do well in this sort of shooting with the budget PPU match products - can't comment personally.

For 155-175s, Viht N140 does very well, as does the slightly slower burning Reload Swiss RS50 (and its 'hot' stablemate RS52). For 175s, I personally prefer N150, but if you're keen to stick to one powder for both cartridges, it has to be N140 and may have to be N135+N140 depending on bullet choice.
Thanks for your detailed response.

I’m using both rifles for paper only, no hunting. The .308 rifle has a 24” barrel 1:10 twist.

I’m happy with different powders for different loads if that’s best/recommended.

Feel free to PM me about the bullets you have.
 
N140 with 69 TMK. Mine is 1:8 26" barrel. Silly accurate out to 800yds. Wind drift is the major issue with .223.
If you use Lapua Match brass then in my case not a compressed load. However there is case volume differences in some batches of Lapua brass so use the same box don't mix.
Remington 7.5 primers
D
 
Having re read Laurie's comments mine are not compressed but I do tap the filled case several times before I seat the bullet. Lapua Match not compressed but Lapua 223 may be compressed due to lower case volume.
D
 
N130 in my .223. Sierra Gameking 55grain bullet, Sako brass, 23.1grains powder (right at the Lee manual 'never exceed' level)

CZ527 Stutzen. 110 metres off a straw bale. These would probably be touching if I made a bit more effort

20250831_165858.webp
 
I suspect that in trying to get the best for both, you may end up with the opposite.
The best powder selection system that I've seen used and demonstrated is by Tim at Little Crow Gunworks.
This is part 12 of an outstanding series of videos, which he produced.
His explanation of analysis of the TREND during powder testing over group size is.......enlightening.
He is unusual as an American, in recommending Vhitavouri powders as the go to choice for reloading, often they are partisan, bordering on xenophobic.

Thanks for the link.

I've looked at the series from the start and it's greatly informative for a newbie like me.

Also good to see that he is actively avoiding going with current trends in terms of calibre choice, instead favouring reliability and consistency.

I recently read Ryan Cleckner's excellent book on long range shooting and it goes down that same path.
 
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