Quickload Data Request

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#1
Hello chaps,

I wonder whether some generous person here would be willing to run some numbers through QuickLoad as I don't have a reloading manual that gives data for anything this unorthodox:

.308 Win
Reloder 15 or H335
RWS Brass (don't have the actual capacity, sorry)
OAL 2.800"
Hornady 220gr RNSP

I'm looking for a suggestion of what appropriate starting / maximum loads might be and what sort of velocities I might expect to obtain.

If someone wants to suggest a more appropriate powder from Alliant or Hodgdon, I'd also be interested to hear about that, but the two above are what I currently have in stock.

Needless to say, anything anyone can share will be interpreted very conservatively to begin with.

With many thanks for any assistance available,

Adam.
 
#2
Aye up mate! How do? Can't help I'm afraid, I've got QuickDesign but not QuickLoad.

Did you overcome the short throat in your rifle then? I seem to remember a gunsmith saying heavy bullets wouldn't work out of yours.
Heavier is better, I'll be loading my 405gr bullets on Monday :)
 

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#3
Hello Jim - hope you're well. :)

I've spent the morning playing around with some 170gr bullets I sourced from some Geco factory loads I'm not using. I tried unloading one and re-seating it to maximum length (i.e. 2.800") and it chambered perfectly. I believe, based on my calculations, that the profile of a 220gr RN might just be narrow enough at the front end to let them chamber too - although the bullets will be a good distance into the case if they do, hence the caution on the data request.

Anyway, it's probably worth risking £30 on a box of bullets to see. I don't suppose anyone else will want them if they don't work, but it's porbably worth a try.

Wife is grumpy with me taking up space (/breathing), so I'll sign off there and post again later.
 
#4
I'm sure plenty of 30-06 guys will fancy the 220 rnsp's. Round nose bullets just look right!

If they work and pack enough punch then you may have to go after boar ;) I'm sure the wife will love that suggestion!
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#5
You can use 30-40 Krag data. The case capacity of the Krag is almost identical. H335 starts at 30.0 grains with a 220 grain bullet and tops out at 33 grains.(1940 fps) I would check the actual OAL will fit in your rifle, as well as the twist rate. It will take 1-10" to stabilize that length of a bullet. Cheap bullets are a fun departure unless they absolutely don't work in your rifle.~Muir
 

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#6
You can use 30-40 Krag data. The case capacity of the Krag is almost identical. H335 starts at 30.0 grains with a 220 grain bullet and tops out at 33 grains.(1940 fps) I would check the actual OAL will fit in your rifle, as well as the twist rate. It will take 1-10" to stabilize that length of a bullet. Cheap bullets are a fun departure unless they absolutely don't work in your rifle.~Muir
Muir,

Thanks for the tips. I'll look at the Krag data - 1940fps sounds just about where I'm aiming at (c. 2000fps) so that's a good start. The OAL is good too - measured that this morning with a substitute bullet and I'm good up to 2.800" at least - possibly more. I don't actually have a bullet big enough to find the maximum yet. There will be a fair amount of bullet inside the case, but with the lower charges taking up less space, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Knowing your vast experience in these matters, twist rate may be a problem, but I'm prepared to take a risk with that. My rifle's a 1-in-12" twist, which sounds like it won't be fast enough - I respect your judgement here. However, I've run the Miller stability formula for the load listed above, and it suggests that it will be stable and with some margin to spare (stability coefficient somewhere in the region of 1.74, with c. 1.3 being good enough) so in theory it should be ok. That's enough for me to want to find out what happens in practice. In the end, if it doesn't work (I'm very happy for you to say "I told you so" when I report that it doesn't), it's £30 wasted to try an experiment which interests me, so I'm ok with that.

I'm still interested to hear if anyone's willing to run the QuickLoad numbers. I know that neither of the powders I've listed will be the best powder for a load like this, so any input on that front will be very welcome.

Thanks again,

Adam.
 
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neutron619

Well-Known Member
#12
I just realized is possible to prefer imperial instead of metric :D
I was going to sit down and put all the numbers into a spreadsheet, but I just thought I'd check the thread and see if there had been any more replies. I'm glad I did - you've saved me a job. Many thanks once again.
 

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#13
Ok chaps - next question.

Let's say the twist rate thing works out and I pick a good, but below-maximum muzzle velocity of 2250fps to aim for. Zeroed ¾" high at 100 yards, that gives me a trajectory that's within an inch either side out to 145 yards and a drop of 6" at 200 yards. Absolutely fine for woodland stalking (and possibly a boar one day).

Given the data above, it looks like the two powders I have in stock will both achieve that with room to spare, so (in a perfect world where QuickLoad is absolutely 100% accurate all the time - I know it isn't) I have a choice which is basically as follows:

RL15: 89% case fill, 99.3% powder burnt, slightly lower overall pressures.
H335: 79% case fill, 100% powder burnt, slightly higher overall pressures.

I have a gut feeling about which one to use, but before I reveal that, would anyone be willing to say which they'd choose in this situation and why?

Thanks again for any assistance anyone can give,

Adam.
 
#14
RL15: 89% case fill, 99.3% powder burnt, slightly lower overall pressures.
H335: 79% case fill, 100% powder burnt, slightly higher overall pressures.

RL15.

With H335 you have more room for powder but you're already burning all of it and pressures are higher so all adding more powder would do is add to noise and flame with increased pressures.

RL15 has the same problem as regards burnt powder but does so at lower pressure. Therefore it's more likely that you'll be able to fill the case without pressure snags. Again, benefits would tail off very quickly.


Ofcourse, QuickLoad may be wrong so RL15 gives you a little more room before pressure becomes an issue.

But then again what do I know! Just my tuppence :)
 

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#15
That was my gut feeling too, simply because I've understood - perhaps wrongly - that higher case fill tends to aid consistency and therefore accuracy. If I've read the data right, those case fill numbers are for space left after a big chunk of bullet goes in and takes up space - 79% full leaves (relatively) a lot of air to change the burning characteristics.

Since the powder burns are so close (I can live with cleaning 0.7% of 30-something grains of powder out of the barrel, I think), I think lower pressure and higher case fill have to be the deciding factor, so RL15 it is.

I'm now trying to decide what load to start at and what to finish at. Since there's no published data for RL15 and a 220gr bullet - even for the .30-40 Krag as Muir suggested - I think I have to be extra cautious. I want to end up somewhere around 38gr of powder, give or take, so usually I'd knock 10% off and start at about 34gr, but in this case I wonder whether it might be safer to drop 15% or even 20% to start with. Any (constructive) thoughts on working up loads without published data are welcome...
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#16
My last say on the subject. In kindness let me say the following:

:Quickload is seldom, if ever, 100% accurate.
:Are you accounting for the case volume lost to the "fair amount" of the bullet seated down into the powder supply in you QL calculations? Didn't think so...
:Wrong bullet for the gun.
:H335 is not a good powder for this application.
:Very marginal twist, no matter what you think. It's not really suitable for even a 200 grain driven fast. (been there, done that)

Toss that 30 pounds into a biscuit tin and save for a chronograph.
Good luck.~Muir
 

Southern

Well-Known Member
#17
39.0 grains of RL-15 is a compressed load with the 220-gr bullets, and the maximum I would run. It will give about 2,235 fps in a 24-inch barrel. You can drop down to a 195-gr BT or a 200-gr RN and load 40.0 grains for 2,400 fps, tops. There is just too much bearing surface on these heavy hunting bullets. The match bullets, like the A-Max, have less friction, but hog up your powder space when you seat them where they should be with the shank all in the case neck.

If you want to run 190, 195, 200, 208 and 220-gr bullets, get a .30-06 or .300 magnum of some sort.
 

neutron619

Well-Known Member
#18
Hi Southern,

Thanks for your input. Muir has given me some things to think about as you'll have seen, but if I go ahead, I'm not going for maximum velocity here, so if I had to use a lesser powder charge, that isn't necessarily a problem.

Again, assuming I go ahead, I said above that I was aiming for about 38gr of RL15, which would fit within the 39.0gr that your experience tells you (and me) is the maximum I should use. I'm working on the basis that, as in more orthodox forms of reloading, a slightly-below-maximum powder charge has no particular safety issues if a maximum charge is found to be safe - in fact, I try to avoid maximum loads if I can help it.

I don't know if I'm going to bother trying this now, but if I do, I'll use RL15 in the absence of a better powder. If 39.0gr is the maximum load, what would you say is a safe starting load, again, given that this is unorthodox and that I want to be conservative about working up the load?

Thanks again,

Adam.
 

Southern

Well-Known Member
#19
Begin at 36.0 gr RL-15. 39.0 grains is at a pressure of 48.500 CUP.

A slower powder like H-4350 will give about 2,370 FPS at 45,900 CUP with 46.0 grains. Start at 43.0.
For IMR-4350, use a grain less, 42.0 to 45.0.

H-335, start 34.0 and 2050 fps, max is 36.0 at 2215 FPS and 49,000 CUP.
 

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