Recommended load for 80 grain fox bullets in 243 win

[Monty1840]

Good afternoon
Can anyone recommend a load for tikka T3 lite in 243 , shooting 80 grain fox bullets using N 140 powder
I am fairly new to reloading and this is the first time loading 243
Once fired brass ( in my rifle ) ultrasonic cleaned, CCI primers , neck sized tried 3 rounds of 37 , 39 , 41 grains all rather poor grouping ( see target )
Tried 3 factory 80 grain round between the 39 and 41 grain rounds and got just over 1 MOA

Not sure what to try next any advice to save me wasting powder , bullets and time would be really appreciated

Monty

 

[Cottis]

Send Ed at Edingburgh Rifles a PM. He knows about these bullets, starting loads and no doubt COAL etc. Should be able to set you on the right track.

 

[Monty1840]

Thanks Cottis I have emailed Ed , no answer , seems quite slow at answering emails with problems, quick when you are buying something

 

[mr baddoo]

That should speed things up the, i’d imagine

 

[Yorric]

I'd put money on the problem not being the load. (I have been known to be wrong though. Lol)
Much more likely to be something else.
The targets in the photo are very inconsistent.
Groups of two or three shots only indicate something isn't right. You need more shots to show truer grouping (5 or more).
It could be any or some of the following list.
A shot out bore.
A very badly fouled bore.
Damaged crown.
Loose bedding / action screws.
Barrel not fully floated & clear of the stock.
Scope defective.
Scope badly mounted.
Wrong bullet diameter.
Badly assembled ammo. / case preparation.
Rifle and scope not fitted to the shooter.
Bad shooting position (inconsistent).
Shooter touch g the barrel when firing.
I'd be checking all the above before I went further.
I know that the OP says factory ammo shoots ok. So this begs the questions,, what type of factory ammo is it, how big a group was fired, what bullet weight and style and what velocity did it fly at?
A chronny session is called for.... Copy factory velocity when shooting similar style and weight bullets (as near as you can) to your Fox pills....
If your reloads are running at significantly different speed to the factory, some of the group sizes and shapes may be explained.
I'm afraid more checking and testing will be needed. I don't think anyone can give you a guaranteed magic formula.
Ian

 

[jer]

As per Yorric above the first consideration is you really ought to be putting at least five rounds down to see what grouping you are getting and make sure you are properly set up when taking the shots, be consistent with everything when shooting, the smallest difference in your technique/position etc for each shot can make a difference.

 

[stalkerboydy]

Good afternoon
Can anyone recommend a load for tikka T3 lite in 243 , shooting 80 grain fox bullets using N 140 powder
I am fairly new to reloading and this is the first time loading 243
Once fired brass ( in my rifle ) ultrasonic cleaned, CCI primers , neck sized tried 3 rounds of 37 , 39 , 41 grains all rather poor grouping ( see target )
Tried 3 factory 80 grain round between the 39 and 41 grain rounds and got just over 1 MOA

Not sure what to try next any advice to save me wasting powder , bullets and time would be really appreciated

Monty

I've just checked vhitavaura load data for n140 your are over suggested max 37.2 grains.
Also n160 seems a better. option also if say 36.0 is starting load I'd load 3 at 36 - 36.5 - 37 so only going up by .5 not 2 grains as you have done

 

[Monty1840]

Thanks for the reply Ian , I don't have access to a chronny or really want to buy one
I was shooting with front and rear bags trying hard to be consistent
Allowing plenty of time between shooting groups
Rifle etc has been checked , screws set with torque driver
If there was a problem with the rifle set up why was factory ammo ok same weight bullets
Just hoping someone with the same set up has found a good load
Cheers Monty

 

[Monty1840]

Thanks Stalker , I did look up that data
I was working on the recommended load by Ed at Edinburgh rifles a printed off page of quick load which gives a max load of 41 grains
Not getting any bad pressure signs at 41 grains
Monty

 

[Monty1840]

Anyone shooting 80 grain fox bullets in a tikka t3 243 win , your help would be great
Monty

 

[Yorric]

Buy a chrony second hand, cheap, but if used properly will serve you well and you can always sell it on for what it costs.
It would save you floundering around chasing nirvana with inadequate real world data and save wasting consumables.
Ian

 

[Totsy]

I have the same cal and bullet as yours loaded with N140, N150 and N550 using Vhit data and starting 10% lower than max load for each powder. Will be firing one round at each charge weight over the chrony to check for pressure signs and speed plateaus and then loading 5 rounds in the middle of each plateau To check accuracy. Should have some results to post back in the next day or so for MY RIFLE.

 

[Dickie]

When you say tried 80 grn factory are they fox bullets in the factory loads?
As just because they are both 80grn doesn’t mean they’ll shoot the same.

 

[Andyquadra]

Have you and any luck with @Edinburgh Rifles yet

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Thanks Cottis I have emailed Ed , no answer , seems quite slow at answering emails with problems, quick when you are buying something

Hi Adrian,
You sent me an email on Thursday (as below)
It doesn't actually ask a question so I am not sure what response to give or was expected.

I am fielding two phones, with two text accounts, two emails, two facebook accounts with two PM systems, a WhatsApp account and probably 7 message systems on various forums at the moment, before I take into account the customers collecting essentials for their pest control or estate management...I am doing this on my own.
I will come back to you but it may not be the same day.


The factory load is actually an OAL of 67mm as below on the Proof Certificate for one of our Factory batches
The 68.83mm OAL for .243 is auto generated by Quickload for the cartridge
Using N550 this bullet in our factory ammo produces one hole groups in many factory rifles as below (this picture from a professional stalking customer shooting a Ruger M77)

I did send the Quickload Screenshots for the powder and bullet combinations to give you some max data for pressure limits.
We can't give people recommended loads when using different components
If you used PPU brass, CCI200 and N550 I would be confident you could jump right in at the factory load
You do still need to work up to find a load for your rifle though

Jumping up 2gr between charge increments is potentially an issue
Standard practice would be 0.5gr or less charge increments to find a node for your rifle.
There are many variables within the development of a load for any particular application
I can't comment on what may be producing the results you are seeing.

I do get that you are disappointed and I am sorry about that
The tips coming out of some of the bullets I can't explain and did respond to. It happens but actually does nothing to affect accuracy or terminal efficacy.
We did send you another box but I don't believe we received the ones you said you were returning.
That's fine, not required, use them for load development

You are using a different powder to the powder we load the factory load with and it will require working up for your rifle
Try the 67mm OAL and working in 0.5gr increments shooting your test loads from a solid platform to eliminate shooter error.
Do ask your local RFD if they would like to join the ever growing network of retailers of Fox Classic Hunter ammunition and maybe we can get you some Factory loads.

Thanks

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

As for the shots per group I disagree with the suggestion that you need more than three
Sometimes its just proving a point that doesnt need proving and more often than not can bring in shooter error as they "chase the group" with that last round

Developing a load for a different bullet I noticed as the temperature has increased in this balmy weather that I was getting slight pressure signs so decided to drop a grain and try

45gr N133 under 136gr Peregrine in .308
Top target 3 shots
44gr N133 under 136gr Peregrine in 308
Bottom left - Same OAL as above
Bottom Right - Slightly longer OAL

3 shots each time
clear difference and results on accuracy

 

[Heym SR20]

As the OP is new to reloading I would suggest a couple of things.

Firstly: make sure that all your brass is consistent - ie the same make and preferably new or once fired in your rifle.

Secondly: Nobody can tell you what will work in your rifle. Use readily available data from both Bullet Manufacturers or even better Powder Manufacturers. But these all have been developed in another rifle - not yours. Your Tikka T3 will be different to the next T3 - there may well have been several thousand rifles made on the same tools between when the two were made - so they will be different.

Here is what I would do: Start at 10% below your max load.

Load up about 10 or so rounds going up in 0.2 gr increments from start to max loads with 1 round at each load. Make sure you have consistent neck tension and all bullets are loaded to the same length. Consistent - do the bullets require the same force for each bullet. I like to crimp because then I know I have good neck tension. Others do not. As you load, mark the load on the cartridge with a sharpie pen.

Starting with lightest load, I then shoot each cartridge to the same point of aim from a cold barrel with each shot. I carefully note where each shot lands. I use the same target, but have a duplicate next to me so each bullet. But equally you could use ten different targets. Choice of target is important, and you want one that is big and bold enough that your cross hair naturally centres. I like four 1 inch black squares that are at the corner of a 3" square. I find it very difficult to shoot good groups at a small dot.

Make sure you have a very stable position, and that there is no wind.

With these ten rounds you are looking two things:

1) any sign of pressure, sticky bolt lift, flattening of primers etc.
2) chances are that you will see two or three clusters loads where three or more consecutive cartridges seem to be forming a group.

Go back to your bench - choose the middle load for each of these clusters and load up three or four rounds for each load. Go and try each of these. Choose which one you like the best - if in doubt I would tend to go that is closest to a round number, but no point in going for a really hot load. Load up a batch of cartridges, check your zero and go hunting.

 

[25 Sharps]

I'd put money on the problem not being the load. (I have been known to be wrong though. Lol)
Much more likely to be something else.
The targets in the photo are very inconsistent.
Groups of two or three shots only indicate something isn't right. You need more shots to show truer grouping (5 or more).
It could be any or some of the following list.
A shot out bore.
A very badly fouled bore.
Damaged crown.
Loose bedding / action screws.
Barrel not fully floated & clear of the stock.
Scope defective.
Scope badly mounted.
Wrong bullet diameter.
Badly assembled ammo. / case preparation.
Rifle and scope not fitted to the shooter.
Bad shooting position (inconsistent).
Shooter touch g the barrel when firing.
I'd be checking all the above before I went further.
I know that the OP says factory ammo shoots ok. So this begs the questions,, what type of factory ammo is it, how big a group was fired, what bullet weight and style and what velocity did it fly at?
A chronny session is called for.... Copy factory velocity when shooting similar style and weight bullets (as near as you can) to your Fox pills....
If your reloads are running at significantly different speed to the factory, some of the group sizes and shapes may be explained.
I'm afraid more checking and testing will be needed. I don't think anyone can give you a guaranteed magic formula.
Ian

If it was any of the above then the factory ammo shot after would have shown bad grouping also surely?

 

[25 Sharps]

As the OP is new to reloading I would suggest a couple of things.

Firstly: make sure that all your brass is consistent - ie the same make and preferably new or once fired in your rifle.

Secondly: Nobody can tell you what will work in your rifle. Use readily available data from both Bullet Manufacturers or even better Powder Manufacturers. But these all have been developed in another rifle - not yours. Your Tikka T3 will be different to the next T3 - there may well have been several thousand rifles made on the same tools between when the two were made - so they will be different.

Here is what I would do: Start at 10% below your max load. Load up about 10 or so rounds going up in 0.2 gr increments from start to max loads. Make sure you have consistent neck tension and all bullets are loaded to the same length. Consistent - do the bullets require the same force for each bullet. I like to crimp because then I know I have good neck tension. Others do not. As you load, mark the load on the cartridge with a sharpie pen.

Starting with lightest load, I then shoot each cartridge to the same point of aim from a cold barrel with each shot. I carefully note where each shot lands. I use the same target, but have a duplicate next to me so each bullet. But equally you could use ten different targets. Choice of target is important, and you want one that is big and bold enough that your cross hair naturally centres. I like four 1 inch black squares that are at the corner of a 3" square. I find it very difficult to shoot good groups at a small dot.

Make sure you have a very stable position, and that there is no wind.

With these ten rounds you are looking two things:

1) any sign of pressure, sticky bolt lift, flattening of primers etc.
2) chances are that you will see two or three clusters loads where three or more consecutive cartridges seem to be forming a group.

Go back to your bench - choose the middle load for each of these clusters and load up three or four rounds for each load. Go and try each of these. Choose which one you like the best - if in doubt I would tend to go that is closest to a round number, but no point in going for a really hot load. Load up a batch of cartridges, check your zero and go hunting.

10 rounds at .2 gr increments means you’ll waste A LOT of Powder, bullets and primers!

That’s 160 rounds if your max load is 41 grains, there’s just no need......

10% below max, go up in .4 or .5 gr increments, for the first 3-4 increments I would load 1 round of each and just check for pressure, shooting these into one group will give you an idea of how stable / fussy your barrel is. So for example the first 5 rounds of 139 gr creedmoor Load development put everything into 3/4” At 200 yards but velocities were way below what I wanted.

after that load 4/5 rounds at each weight and shoot for groups. I agree with Ed, 3 rounds is enough for initial testing to find nodes but it’s handy to have a couple of spares if you know you’ve pulled one or put a cahrge weight in the wrong target!!

Once you’ve found your node then play .2 gr either way and seating depth if needs be, or go shoot some deer as chances are you’ll get something shooting moa or less which is all you need!!

 

[Heym SR20]

10 rounds at .2 gr increments means you’ll waste a lot of powder -yes you will!

I meant a total of 10 rounds with one round at each 0.2gr increment.

I have amended my wording.

Using this method you Should get get a pretty good load with less than 20 rounds sent down range.