Red Deer Ammo Suitability Survey

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Estudiente

Well-Known Member
Hi

As per my introduction I`m a student , my dissertation is questioning the suitability of the legal minimum calibre /energy required for stalking or culling Red Deer , I've set up a survey and would appreciate it if stalkers would complete the questionnaire and also pass any opinions they have on the matter.

Many thanks for your time.

Research into rifle and ammunition suitability for Red Deer stalking and culling. Does Current UK legislation need revising with regards ammunition requirements for hunting Red Deer ? Survey
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Oooooo, controversial or what?!
You will get a variety of responses for certain!
However, have you also considered that a likely change in the law (or at least best practise) will render the humble .243 useless for Red Deer in Scotland? Scottish law dictates that a minimum bullet of 100 grains is used. If we all follow the FC lead and move over to copper, there is no bullet in .243 to satisfy this weight. Just a thought for you. I sincerely hope that doesn't throw your dissertation into disarray?
In some ways, it would be good if SNH and NE could unify the laws. It would certainly make it easier for candidates on DSC 1 courses!
Good luck.
MS
 
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8x57

Distinguished Member
Oooooo, controversial or what?!

However, have you also considered that a likely change in the law (or at least best practise) will render the humble .243 useless for Red Deer in Scotland?
MS

Or for that matter strict enforcement of the existing laws not just in Scotland but in England and Wales also. :lol:

Remembering that the "humble" .243win cartridge technically isn't of sufficient calibre and that often factory ammunition shot from short barreled rifles doesn't meet the required velocities and thus muzzle energy requirements of the various countries.
:stir: :rofl:
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
Oooooo, controversial or what?!
You will get a variety of responses for certain!
However, have you also considered that a likely change in the law (or at least best practise) will render the humble .243 useless for Red Deer in Scotland? Scottish law dictates that a minimum bullet of 100 grains is used. If we all follow the FC lead and move over to copper, there is no bullet in .243 to satisfy this weight. Just a thought for you. I sincerely hope that doesn't throw your dissertation into disarray?
In some ways, it would be good if SNH and NE could unify the laws. It would certainly make it easier for candidates on DSC 1 courses!
Good luck.
MS

Thanks , its an interesting subject and my findings will be qualitative, as you say the .243 may become obsolete for Red stalking especially if lead is banned , good for the gun trade but not good for .243 owners (me inc) .
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
Or for that matter strict enforcement of the existing laws not just in Scotland but in England and Wales also. :lol:

Remembering that the "humble" .243win cartridge technically isn't of sufficient calibre and that often factory ammunition shot from short barreled rifles doesn't meet the required velocities and thus muzzle energy requirements of the various countries.
:stir: :rofl:

This is one area I will also be covering, 5-10 boxes of .243 factory ammo , a chrono and my 20" Tikka.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Thanks , its an interesting subject and my findings will be qualitative, as you say the .243 may become obsolete for Red stalking especially if lead is banned , good for the gun trade but not good for .243 owners (me inc) .

Am slightly sad to see this topic come up. Its a can of worms. The .243 is a great park culling calibre.
 

caorach

Well-Known Member
Despite the government interfering with every part of our lives already I've decided to do some research which will allow the nutjobs to claim they have "science" to call for something else to be banned, would you like you join in?
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
Am slightly sad to see this topic come up. Its a can of worms. The .243 is a great park culling calibre.


I don't think it is sad at all
It demonstrates an interest in self regulation and education that the powers that be have indicated needs to happen.

To be fair park culling could happily be done with a .222 or 22/250
in fact in NZ the 22/250 is/was an extremely popular round for red deer
However head shots are the norm not the exception.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
This is one area I will also be covering, 5-10 boxes of .243 factory ammo , a chrono and my 20" Tikka.

To save yourself some money on ammo and as background information that you could quote in your dissertation it might be worth looking up the article that Bruce Potts wrote on the .243win in short barreled rifles 18 months to 2 years ago. He later wrote a similar article on the .270win cartridge and short barrels.

P.S. With regard to the .243win he concluded that a 20" barrel was probably the shortest realistic length that you could go to and still have a chance of achieving the required muzzle energy that the law says you should achieve.
 
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Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Thanks , its an interesting subject and my findings will be qualitative, as you say the .243 may become obsolete for Red stalking especially if lead is banned , good for the gun trade but not good for .243 owners (me inc) .
Is there not a risk that your findings will therefore be viewed as biased?
MS
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
I don't think it is sad at all
It demonstrates an interest in self regulation and education that the powers that be have indicated needs to happen.

To be fair park culling could happily be done with a .222 or 22/250
in fact in NZ the 22/250 is/was an extremely popular round for red deer
However head shots are the norm not the exception.

Well it is to me. The issue of calibre is very 'conditions' dependent and cannot easily be solved by simply increasing the diameter of the bullet. The logical conclusion is to shoot a .50 cal but we know that less will do. The telling question mentions the type of person doing the shooting. If we are choosing a calibre based on the experience of the person pulling the trigger, we would be far better introducing formal training and leaving it up to the individual to assess the circumstances. Lets be honest and admit that it would not matter what calibre a newbie was using, there would be questions over their suitability. Obviously I agree that a 22.250 would be ideal but it is not legal whereas for the time being at least a .243 is. To force the whole community to use specific calibres is in my view an unnecessary restriction.
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
I personally would never choose to cull any large deer in the UK with a .243. I also think that the .243's days are numbered as we will eventually be forced to use non lead ammunition and the .243 will not be fit for purpose without it. If I were advising a novice about purchase of a new rifle, I would not recommend a .243 other than for small deer. It would not surprise me if the minimum calibre was raised to .250/6.5mm.
I'm sure that prospect will not sit well with many folk on here, but it could become a reality.
MS
 

JockStalk

Well-Known Member
There's also research ongoing into bowhunting as an option in the UK.

Lets not get our knickers too twisted just yet. 243 is plenty big enough. A badly placed 50 cal round will create a runner just as much as any other cal.
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
Well it is to me. The issue of calibre is very 'conditions' dependent and cannot easily be solved by simply increasing the diameter of the bullet. The logical conclusion is to shoot a .50 cal but we know that less will do. The telling question mentions the type of person doing the shooting. If we are choosing a calibre based on the experience of the person pulling the trigger, we would be far better introducing formal training and leaving it up to the individual to assess the circumstances. Lets be honest and admit that it would not matter what calibre a newbie was using, there would be questions over their suitability. Obviously I agree that a 22.250 would be ideal but it is not legal whereas for the time being at least a .243 is. To force the whole community to use specific calibres is in my view an unnecessary restriction.

Then complete my survey and put across your views there , you are given opportunity to do so, all data will be used , thats the whole point , I dont have a say in which way it goes , this part of the dissertation is qualitative and based on your (stalkers) views.
To me it makes no difference, I`ve got a 308 as well :)
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
There's also research ongoing into bowhunting as an option in the UK.

Lets not get our knickers too twisted just yet. 243 is plenty big enough. A badly placed 50 cal round will create a runner just as much as any other cal.

This will be discussed as well, One could say lets make 300wm the minimum but as a lot of people struggle with recoil it would most likely result in more injured deer than with a .243 or similar through badly placed shots.
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
To force the whole community to use specific calibres is in my view an unnecessary restriction.

but it isn't calibre related.
It is energy related

I would have no problem shooting large deer with a 220 swift!
it has more energy inside 250yds than a 100gr .243

as for "good for the gun industry"... I bet it won't
how many .243 will they be expected to take in on PX?
where will they all go?
how about all the ammo they will be stuck with

sounds like a marketing nightmare IMO!
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
Despite the government interfering with every part of our lives already I've decided to do some research which will allow the nutjobs to claim they have "science" to call for something else to be banned, would you like you join in?

Im not suggesting anything should be banned , read the survey and you'll see quite the opposite ,

[h=4]8. Would you like to see the legal minimum ballistic energy requirements for stalking / culling Red Deer raised ?[/h] Yes

No

No , we just need educate people through the shooting press and shooting organizations.


None of the above , I think...
 

Estudiente

Well-Known Member
but it isn't calibre related.
It is energy related

I would have no problem shooting large deer with a 220 swift!
it has more energy inside 250yds than a 100gr .243

as for "good for the gun industry"... I bet it won't
how many .243 will they be expected to take in on PX?
where will they all go?
how about all the ammo they will be stuck with

sounds like a marketing nightmare IMO!

As you say its not calibre related , the law only states a minimum bullet size and energy / velocity.

If lead was banned 243 owners could barrel to 260 or 308 ?
 
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