Reloading .22 Hornet with H4895

Northwest

Well-Known Member
#1
As the title really. I would like to reload .22 Hornet with H4895 for it's ability to load down. I have seen a reference (cannot remember where though) to reloading .17 with this powder but cannot find any starting loads online. I currently use this powder successfully in my .222 Remington. If anyone can make any suggestions I would be grateful, Thanks.
 

james22250

Well-Known Member
#4
Hi,I have never tried H4895 in my .222, I just stick with BLC2. I used to load 11.25 gr of 4227 with a 50gr SP for about 2500fps in a modern Ruger 77, that was a very accurate load for me,11.5gr accuracy dropped off badly, as for lighter bullets, I never found I could reload them at all with these powders, maybe lilgun is the answer, or maybe 2400, it works well in a .44 mag carbine.
Just out of interest why would you want to load down the lowest capacity .22CF calibre with a slow bulky powder anyway? max load is only about 12 gr with the correct powder.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#6
I think his aim is to load down his Hornet, and H4895 is widely known for reduced loads- just not in a Hornet. Alliant 2400 is a good powder for reduced velocity jacketed bullet loads in a Hornet. The kicker is that most jacketed bullets will cease to expand if the speed gets too low. For reduced loads in the Hornet, in the 22LR and 22WMR class, I use cast bullets..~Muir
 

Laurie

Well-Known Member
#7
H4895 is an unsuitable powder for the Hornet. It is too bulky and far too slow burning. If you try it, a case stuffed full of this powder under a 40 or 45gn bullet will still only generate something a bit below 20,000 psi pressures and will see a large part of the charge remain unburned as even H4895 doesn't work well at this level. This in turn gives two results - a filthy barrel and most likely chamber; very large pressure and velocity variations.

You are confusing two things here - suitable powders for a tiny case cartrtidge like the Hornet, and Hodgdon advising H4895's suitability for 'youth loads' and similar in larger cased cartridges like 243, 308 etc.

(For those unfmailiar with light loads data using H4895, it's shown here: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads.pdf )

Although these 'youth loads' work, my experience is that they're very dirty burners as it takes more than the 30-35,000 psi pressures they produce to get this and most 'general-purpose' smokeless rifle powders to burn cleanly and 100% consistently.

The .22 Hornet needs powders developed primarily for magnum handgun cartridges and the .410 shotgun to operate properly - Alliant 2400 (the original 1930s Hornet propellant); H110 (.30 Carbine originally); Hodgdon L'il Gun (a 410 powder); Viht N110 and similar.

If you really must have a low velocity gallery rifle / quasi indoor load for the cartridge look at the fast-burning super bulky powders introduced for US Cowboy Action Shooting loads - Viht N32C 'Tin Star', and IMR Trail Boss. 4 or 5gn charges nearly fill the Hornet case and give a 100% clean charge burn.
 
Last edited:

v-max

Well-Known Member
#9
Laurie has put it well for you. As I say get lilgun its the stuff 13g with 35g v-max or my favourite is 45g Speer sp with 13g lilgun & a cci pistol primer done. As for recoil it has none my 7yrs old son shoots my hornet & loves it can shoot rabbits out to 150m with my cz527 hornet. Gave him ago at a 400yrd 10" gone with my 6.5x47 & hit that first round no other too.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#10
Laurie has put it well for you. As I say get lilgun its the stuff 13g with 35g v-max or my favourite is 45g Speer sp with 13g lilgun & a cci pistol primer done. As for recoil it has none my 7yrs old son shoots my hornet & loves it can shoot rabbits out to 150m with my cz527 hornet. Gave him ago at a 400yrd 10" gone with my 6.5x47 & hit that first round no other too.
Not to jump off the topic rails but are you still finding 35 grain VM in the UK? They are gone here, "production temporarily suspended" by the company that still claims they are running their machines 24-7 and it's "business as usual" for them. (my ass) (rant over) ~Muir
 

v-max

Well-Known Member
#11
Not to jump off the topic rails but are you still finding 35 grain VM in the UK? They are gone here, "production temporarily suspended" by the company that still claims they are running their machines 24-7 and it's "business as usual" for them. (my ass) (rant over) ~Muir
Hi muir I got them a year ago I got 1000 as I couldn't get 45g Speer but I just got 1000 of them. I only have 20-30 v-max left now but like the 45g Speer so onto them now in my hornet they are great for loading into cz527 magazine as the mag length is short etc.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#12
Hi muir I got them a year ago I got 1000 as I couldn't get 45g Speer but I just got 1000 of them. I only have 20-30 v-max left now but like the 45g Speer so onto them now in my hornet they are great for loading into cz527 magazine as the mag length is short etc.
I've got 2200 of the VM left but they are my Son's favorite Hornet fodder so I've left them for him. I started using the Midway (Berger) Dog-Town 34 gr HP's. I like them as well or better.~Muir
 

25 Sharps

Well-Known Member
#13
I've got 2200 of the VM left but they are my Son's favorite Hornet fodder so I've left them for him. I started using the Midway (Berger) Dog-Town 34 gr HP's. I like them as well or better.~Muir
Trouble is the dog towns are getting hard to get hold of now, listed out of stock on midway, there are a few 35gr V-max floating around in the uk but nobody seems to have any in any number. I got 100 with my hornet, my usual RFD found 2 boxes and someone from my club has 2 boxes for me that he doesn't want. The 500 will keep me going for a year or so and hopefully they'll start producing them again. In the meantime looking at a nosler 40gr HP load as a back up.

52gr A-max are difficult to get hold of too, though another local RFD got a whole 600 in last week! All gone now, luckily 300 left by the time I got there.

Back to the OP this is something I have looked at recently as I have had a noise complaint (more of a concerned phone call to the farmer) when shooting at night with the hornet on one permission. Most of it is out of the way but 2 fields are nearer the village and the crack of the hornet bounces off of the hill behind. I'd like to download some cartridges for use in these fields so I can then go on and shoot the rest with the same gun, using jacketed bullets in both loads to save changing copper to lead.

I came across an archived thread on rimfire central giving data for using IMR 4350 and 4381 for reduced MV loads as I am going to be loading 6.5x55 also and there is plenty of the 4831 in stock locally I may give it a go. I am a little dubious though as the data is old ('70s) and the powder may have changed! Plus I'm new to reloading and a bit nervous of taking random load data off of the net :???:

Thread with the load data below

Need a reloadable [Archive] - RimfireCentral.com Forums
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#14
Trouble is the dog towns are getting hard to get hold of now, listed out of stock on midway, there are a few 35gr V-max floating around in the uk but nobody seems to have any in any number. I got 100 with my hornet, my usual RFD found 2 boxes and someone from my club has 2 boxes for me that he doesn't want. The 500 will keep me going for a year or so and hopefully they'll start producing them again. In the meantime looking at a nosler 40gr HP load as a back up.

52gr A-max are difficult to get hold of too, though another local RFD got a whole 600 in last week! All gone now, luckily 300 left by the time I got there.

Back to the OP this is something I have looked at recently as I have had a noise complaint (more of a concerned phone call to the farmer) when shooting at night with the hornet on one permission. Most of it is out of the way but 2 fields are nearer the village and the crack of the hornet bounces off of the hill behind. I'd like to download some cartridges for use in these fields so I can then go on and shoot the rest with the same gun, using jacketed bullets in both loads to save changing copper to lead.

I came across an archived thread on rimfire central giving data for using IMR 4350 and 4381 for reduced MV loads as I am going to be loading 6.5x55 also and there is plenty of the 4831 in stock locally I may give it a go. I am a little dubious though as the data is old ('70s) and the powder may have changed! Plus I'm new to reloading and a bit nervous of taking random load data off of the net :???:

Thread with the load data below

Need a reloadable [Archive] - RimfireCentral.com Forums
In the 70's I was shooting surplus 4831 and 4350. Check current data. Lyman down loads the 6.5x55 unmercifully. Their starting loads with a 140 grain are around 2100 fps.~Muir
 

25 Sharps

Well-Known Member
#15
In the 70's I was shooting surplus 4831 and 4350. Check current data. Lyman down loads the 6.5x55 unmercifully. Their starting loads with a 140 grain are around 2100 fps.~Muir
So best avoiding the 70's data then? It was the hornet I was looking to download based on the older data; 11.5 grains under a 45 grain bullet.

planning on using Nosler partitions in the 6.5 which with the 4831 should give 2550-2760 according to nosler's data
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
#16
So best avoiding the 70's data then? It was the hornet I was looking to download based on the older data; 11.5 grains under a 45 grain bullet.

planning on using Nosler partitions in the 6.5 which with the 4831 should give 2550-2760 according to nosler's data
I'm looking at Lyman's data from their #49 manual. The data they provide is made so that it is safe in the Krag-Jorgensen rifles. They list (generically) 140 gran bullet with 37.5 if IMR 4350 for 2180 fps. Lyman used actual pressure gun data so it should be a good place to start if IMR 4350 is your powder of choice.~Muir.

(And as to the 70's data: use at your own risk.)
 

Laurie

Well-Known Member
#17
Several powders have changed since the 1970s - they may have the same name but come from different suppliers and often have slightly (occasionally, very) different characteristics. For example, Hodgdon was still selling some surplus WW2 IMR powders into the early 70s, then obtained its supplies of H4895, H4350, and H4831 as well as one or two others from ICI Nobel in Ayrshire. When ICI shut down in the late 80s / early 90s, Hodgdon sourced these powders and now many others from ADI in Mulwala, New South Wales, literally the other side of the planet. Accurate (Arms) powders have been sourced from Israel, the Czech Rebublic and now Belgium (ball grades) and Canada (extruded), not only different countries and plants, but changed manufacturers with varying product development backgrounds and histories.

Also, companies have become more careful of their data. Not surprising - it's not just more health & safety conscious and litiginous customers and governments, but handloading has grown enormously in recent years. A relatively specialist activity has gone mainstream; aficionados have been augmented by the inexperienced and sometimes downright careless and ignorant.

Then too, real pressure information has increased dramatically. As recently as the 80s, much ballistics lab pressure evaluation still relied on case-head expansion measurement. Since then, strain gauge and other testing systems plus cheap PCs have revolutionised the speed, accuracy and ease of obtaining not just peak pressure values, but the shape of the pressure curve.

A final issue is that of the continental US climate and the way some shooters treat their ammunition. There is a much greater awareness of the effects of heat on powder behaviours and pressures with particular concern that a rifle clipped to a pick-up dashboard or metal body and left sitting for hours in the open under the Texas afternoon sun might as well have its cartridges placed in an oven for half an hour. Hornady revised all its ball powder loads down substantially several issues of its manual ago for this reason. There are also concerns about ammo in many American country dwellers rifles so used irresepctive of ammo type and source from rifles and revolvers that live in trucks that are driven long distances over bumpy tracks and ground. Go long enough without using the firearms and the ammo in the magazines or revolver chambers undertake an experience that cumulatively can be equivalent to being put into a vibratory tumbler for an hour of two. Powder kernels are damaged and start to behave differently altering their burning rates.
 

paul o'

Well-Known Member
#18
have a look on this site:Handloads Online, the reloaders resource

i use h4895 for my 30 cal and used lil gun in my old hornet, this is what others have posted so work up is the key words..

[TABLE="width: 640, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]All Load Data[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 22 Hornet[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]by:[/TD]
[TD]Powder[/TD]
[TD]Velocity[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Set alternate row color[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
11 Handloads[TABLE="width: 728, align: center"]
[TR]
[TH="colspan: 7"]22 Hornet, all bullet weights[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Bullet[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Powder Weight[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Powder[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Velocity[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]OAL[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Primer[/TD]
[TD="class: header, align: center"]Source[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]30gr STHP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]12.8 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Lil gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,850 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1.825"[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]1 inch groups at 100yds in a NEF handi-rifle. The bullet is a berger VLD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E1E29E"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]30gr STHP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]3.3 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]bullseye[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1,875 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1.623"[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: #E1E29E, colspan: 6"]1 inch groups at 100yds. the bullet is a sierra 30gr hp. wonderful for rabbits and squirrels.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]35gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]11.0 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]WW296[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,800 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]CCI SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]This is a fast but light load that I use in 3 different guns. Small pistol primer and consistant brass is the answer for a good shooting Hornet.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E1E29E"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]40gr BTHP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]13.0 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]H Lil Gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,890 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1.840"[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: #E1E29E, colspan: 6"]40Gr Nosler BT out of a Ruger 77/22 Hornet, good accuracy and lots of power for varmints. Cases on 4th loading and no signs of separation. Loaded with Lee Collet Neck size only dies, and Factory crimp die.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]40gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]14.0 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]LiLgun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]3,020 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Fed SPM[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]You have to tap shell case for the additional powder. I like to use the Hornday 40 vmax.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E1E29E"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]40gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]12.5 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]WW 296[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]3,000 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]CCI SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: #E1E29E, colspan: 6"]*** THIS IS A HOT LOAD *** I use this as a stand in for a .223 for now for our 10 yr old daughter. It is a 1/2" load out of chopped down NEF single shot. The daughter is small and its 11" L.O.P. is good til she grows. Trigger job, short bipod and a 6x Burris make the package.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]45gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]13.5 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Lil’gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,700 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]CCI SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]very accurate, low pressure with highest velocity.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E1E29E"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]50gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]11.0 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]IMR4227[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Unknown[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: #E1E29E, colspan: 6"]10 shots same hole 75 yds[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]50gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]12.5 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Lil gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,710 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1.855"[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]1 inch groups at 100yds in a NEF Handi-rifle. bullet is a 50gr PSP from winchester.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #E1E29E"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]53 gr JHP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]12.2 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Lil Gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Unknown[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"][/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: #E1E29E, colspan: 6"]Ruger 77/22,Hornady HP match bullets. Fairly hot load, but no excess pressure or case stretch. Consistent ragged-hole 5 shot groups at 50 yds. 80 yd doe didn’t have time to express opinion concerning adequacy of this round for central Texas deer...
Email author: ja
See all of ja's loads
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: white"]
[TD="class: bullet, width: 60, align: left"]55gr SP[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 105"]12.3 gr[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Lil gun[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]2,600 fps[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]1.845"[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]Win SR[/TD]
[TD="class: data, width: 75"]guest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: comment, bgcolor: white, colspan: 6"]1 1/2 inch groups at 100yds in NEF handi-rilfe. bullet is a 55grain psp from remington. Awsome close range deer cartrige.
Email author: shaneslouha
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:

25 Sharps

Well-Known Member
#19
Several powders have changed since the 1970s - they may have the same name but come from different suppliers and often have slightly (occasionally, very) different characteristics. For example, Hodgdon was still selling some surplus WW2 IMR powders into the early 70s, then obtained its supplies of H4895, H4350, and H4831 as well as one or two others from ICI Nobel in Ayrshire. When ICI shut down in the late 80s / early 90s, Hodgdon sourced these powders and now many others from ADI in Mulwala, New South Wales, literally the other side of the planet. Accurate (Arms) powders have been sourced from Israel, the Czech Rebublic and now Belgium (ball grades) and Canada (extruded), not only different countries and plants, but changed manufacturers with varying product development backgrounds and histories.

Also, companies have become more careful of their data. Not surprising - it's not just more health & safety conscious and litiginous customers and governments, but handloading has grown enormously in recent years. A relatively specialist activity has gone mainstream; aficionados have been augmented by the inexperienced and sometimes downright careless and ignorant.

Then too, real pressure information has increased dramatically. As recently as the 80s, much ballistics lab pressure evaluation still relied on case-head expansion measurement. Since then, strain gauge and other testing systems plus cheap PCs have revolutionised the speed, accuracy and ease of obtaining not just peak pressure values, but the shape of the pressure curve.

A final issue is that of the continental US climate and the way some shooters treat their ammunition. There is a much greater awareness of the effects of heat on powder behaviours and pressures with particular concern that a rifle clipped to a pick-up dashboard or metal body and left sitting for hours in the open under the Texas afternoon sun might as well have its cartridges placed in an oven for half an hour. Hornady revised all its ball powder loads down substantially several issues of its manual ago for this reason. There are also concerns about ammo in many American country dwellers rifles so used irresepctive of ammo type and source from rifles and revolvers that live in trucks that are driven long distances over bumpy tracks and ground. Go long enough without using the firearms and the ammo in the magazines or revolver chambers undertake an experience that cumulatively can be equivalent to being put into a vibratory tumbler for an hour of two. Powder kernels are damaged and start to behave differently altering their burning rates.
Basically leave well alone then! Shame as I really fancy downloading the hornet for the reason stated in my previous post, guess I'll have to take the .22 with me as well. Shame as I've just bought the IMR4831, still hopefully it will work in the swede....
 

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