Rifle accuracy

Hales Smut

Well-Known Member
What would be considered "average" "normal" sporter barrel accuracy in a deer/boar rifle? By this I mean, not the 1 exceptional group you get once a day, but the average of 10 groups you shoot in a morning. ( 3 or 5 shot groups )
I see on this forum some spectacular groups. Do these rifles shoot these groups on a constant basis or are these the exception of the day?
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
Most decent factory rifles claim to shoot 1" or 1 MOA or thereabouts

inch to inch and a half from readily available ammo
or much less with ammo it likes

personally never had much success with factory ammo shooting super small groups
only saw real groups shrink with reloads
 

long_range_rob

Well-Known Member
The great majority of modern factory rifles will shoot sub MOA. Sako's are shot in the factory and do not leave unless they do shoot MOA or less.

The limiting factor is always us!
 

762Scot

Well-Known Member
Just tried some factory Winchester 150 grain. Not impressive, I will have to work up some reloads when I can.
The problem is these days its difficult to walk into a shop and buy 3-6 different brands of rounds to try in a rifle to see what works
 

Barkingsnake

Well-Known Member
I'd hope for less than 1MOA from a new factory rifle with handloads. Most of mine beat that and tend to sub-1/2 MOA depending on the driver and the day.
However, I've seen some right horrible efforts of around 3MOA but that was almost always the driver.

A Rem 700 VS I owned could shoot as badly as 3 - 4 MOA with military surplus but would keep 1/2 MOA with handloads or Lapua Match.
 

swarovski

Well-Known Member
I just wrote a big paragraph and posted it and it said refresh the page, can't be arsed to do it again, really good loads will shoot again and again and again if you are good on the trigger, I try to get all my loads to shoot really small groups, tried 2 shots with 140gr amaxes today, holes were touching, most people who target shoot would agree with me in saying the more you shoot in a session the worse you get :D
 
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Hales Smut

Well-Known Member
The driver certainly plays an important role. Previous session on the range I had a nice 15mm group at 150meters. Today the same at 100 metres. 243 / 75 grain HDY / Ramshot Hunter. But also have several groups in between 3 and 5 cm. (1 moa is about 3cm at 100 metres) The rifle is an old Rem 700 ADL wich I dropped in a PSE composite stock. Shot about 20 rounds in a few 3 and 4 shot groups.
 

swarovski

Well-Known Member
2 weeks ago I tweaked a 142gr smk h4831sc load that wouldnt shoot any good at 1000yds, fired 3 shots walked up to the target, it was in the 0.2s, I walked back and fired 2 more which measured 0.370 of an inch 5 shot group, my 6th shot I pulled.thats how easy it is to mess up, I will be using these on the next 1000yd day, these should be real good :lol:
 

smullery

Well-Known Member
So, you see a deer moving and don't have a safe shot. You jog for half a mile to get a safe shot on, stop and take a freehand shot and the deer is hit well and runs for thirty metres and goes down.

Please explain to me how the issue between factory and reload matters?

Stn
 

caorach

Well-Known Member
I suspect there are very, very few people who actually know how accurate their rifle is.

Take a look at the black dot of doom threads and what you find is that most people, most of the time, can't hit a 1 inch circle at 100 yards. You will also see that there were, I think, 12000 views of the thread but only less than 80 rounds fired so most of the people who "shoot half inch groups all day long every day" (and who talk about it at length) aren't actually willing to put that to the test because it is simply not the truth. Plus many of them subtract a lot of things from the actual group size for a whole lot of weird reasons, so even when they do report group sizes it will be minus the width of the moon and have the diameter of the nearest pine cone removed from it. We've all shot that fluke remarkable group in our time but that tells us nothing about the size of our next group, only that we got lucky once.

Based on the black dot and other observations I'd feel comfortable to say that stalkers shooting in the field can generally shoot into a 3 or 4 inch circle at 100 yards. That is to say they can consistently and reliably land their shots in the circle. I would be pretty certain that a well engineered rifle could do much better than this.

Having watched the groups from my standard Blaser R93 I'd say that the rifle puts the bullets within a fraction of an inch of where it was pointed when I pull the trigger, and that is without any fancy reloading mumbo jumbo going on either, it is just that I'm rarely pointing at exactly the same spot every time I pull the trigger.
 

cambsman

Well-Known Member
I suspect there are very, very few people who actually know how accurate their rifle is.

Take a look at the black dot of doom threads and what you find is that most people, most of the time, can't hit a 1 inch circle at 100 yards. You will also see that there were, I think, 12000 views of the thread but only less than 80 rounds fired so most of the people who "shoot half inch groups all day long every day" (and who talk about it at length) aren't actually willing to put that to the test because it is simply not the truth. Plus many of them subtract a lot of things from the actual group size for a whole lot of weird reasons, so even when they do report group sizes it will be minus the width of the moon and have the diameter of the nearest pine cone removed from it. We've all shot that fluke remarkable group in our time but that tells us nothing about the size of our next group, only that we got lucky once.

Based on the black dot and other observations I'd feel comfortable to say that stalkers shooting in the field can generally shoot into a 3 or 4 inch circle at 100 yards. That is to say they can consistently and reliably land their shots in the circle. I would be pretty certain that a well engineered rifle could do much better than this.

Having watched the groups from my standard Blaser R93 I'd say that the rifle puts the bullets within a fraction of an inch of where it was pointed when I pull the trigger, and that is without any fancy reloading mumbo jumbo going on either, it is just that I'm rarely pointing at exactly the same spot every time I pull the trigger.
+1. Also, how many times do you see pictures of a tight group, but it's a couple of inches away from the aim point? What's the point of that? You miss in the same place all the time? Not much use in the real world, surely?
 

gixer1

Well-Known Member
I suspect there are very, very few people who actually know how accurate their rifle is.

Take a look at the black dot of doom threads and what you find is that most people, most of the time, can't hit a 1 inch circle at 100 yards. You will also see that there were, I think, 12000 views of the thread but only less than 80 rounds fired so most of the people who "shoot half inch groups all day long every day" (and who talk about it at length) aren't actually willing to put that to the test because it is simply not the truth. Plus many of them subtract a lot of things from the actual group size for a whole lot of weird reasons, so even when they do report group sizes it will be minus the width of the moon and have the diameter of the nearest pine cone removed from it. We've all shot that fluke remarkable group in our time but that tells us nothing about the size of our next group, only that we got lucky once.

Based on the black dot and other observations I'd feel comfortable to say that stalkers shooting in the field can generally shoot into a 3 or 4 inch circle at 100 yards. That is to say they can consistently and reliably land their shots in the circle. I would be pretty certain that a well engineered rifle could do much better than this.

Having watched the groups from my standard Blaser R93 I'd say that the rifle puts the bullets within a fraction of an inch of where it was pointed when I pull the trigger, and that is without any fancy reloading mumbo jumbo going on either, it is just that I'm rarely pointing at exactly the same spot every time I pull the trigger.
I would agree with the above, I have days where I can't seem to hit bu**er all then days where everything comes together, my rifles for the most part seem to be anywhere from 2 1/2" to cloverleaf...I'm the input that's inconsistant!

As as a general rule my Tikka T3 (30-06) seems to be 1 to 2 inch groups, my Sauer (243) cloverleaf to 1 inch, my marlin 30-30 around 1 1/2", and the new experience of an AR15 223 seems to be 1" but strings shots as it warms up! (You can actually see them walking!)

so so I guess what I'm saying is with me pulling the trigger they are consistently under 3" ... I haven't tried the black dot thing yet but will give it a go with the 30-30 and AR15 next time I'm out.

the pics attaches show a good representation of the recent rifles mentioned above.
 

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AN DU RU FOX

Well-Known Member
i did the black dot the otherday with nine 223 bullets winnie varmints first cold barrel no practise first time on quad sticks winnies within an inch but wasnt sure if it was me,second privvi s/ps less than an inch to half inch, third sako g/heads all bang on at 100 metres no cooling off just a few seconds inbetween to reload another ,three so as caroach says i dont think theres much in it ammo wise,theres more error in the shooter, doug,
 

devilishdave

Well-Known Member
too many variables in the question but with an average rifle and average factory ammo I would expect to get sub 1.5 inch groups from the Bipod all morning. I have seen the same make and model of rifle in the same call not shoot close to its counterpart with the same ammo and the same shooter. A round loaded perfectly for accuracy for a particular rifle will change that accuracy some what all dependant on the shooters ability and focus. have seen .25 MOA groups fired consistently by a mate using an £800 standard barrelled rifle scope set up.

Dave
 

JTO

Well-Known Member
The late John Newton was asked by a customer in the Warden Hill gun shop, before it became SGC, what was the best gun to buy(shotgun). "It doesn't matter, they're all better than you are". Was the answer. I've been to Bisley today. I had 5 V-bulls for 8 shots at 600 yrds. One shot I pulled and the first I aimed off to allow for the wind and it went exactly where the cross-hairs were when I pulled the trigger. All with factory ammunition.
 

swarovski

Well-Known Member
Unless I am zeroing a rifle all my testing is done without moving my current zero windage, my rifles are zeroed for hunting with a mod on with my target ammo I use a muzzle brake, what i am getting at is most of my targets the groups are not in the dot of doom as you put it, generally to one side, when i am testing my reload, its all about groups, not where they are in relation to the d o d ;), i hope that makes sense :D
 

pietasvenatores

Well-Known Member
What would be considered "average" "normal" sporter barrel accuracy in a deer/boar rifle? By this I mean, not the 1 exceptional group you get once a day, but the average of 10 groups you shoot in a morning. ( 3 or 5 shot groups )
I see on this forum some spectacular groups. Do these rifles shoot these groups on a constant basis or are these the exception of the day?
factory ammo differs in rifles, so you might find one weight and type groups signifcantly better than another.

handloads can of course be fined tuned to work in harmony with the barrel vibrations, but unless factory ammo groups decently then there's an underlying issue which is either barrel, barrel to receiver fit, or barrelled action to stock fit, etc. etc..

I would struggle to live with a rifle that could not deliver 1/2" groups with factory ammo, and have not had a rifle that was incapable of that..that said, the trick 9/10 times is to bed the front recoil lug and parallel section of the barrel, which I have seen many times shrink groups from 2-3" to 1/2" or even 1/4".

it's also important when testing a rifles accuracy to remove the human element as much as possible, ie. have a sand bag rest with no wind, a really crisp and light trigger, and of course, a good shooter behind the rifle.

any rifle that was bedded and could not deliver sub 1" groups with factory ammo, in my book, deserves nothing better than the bin.
 

Dalua

Well-Known Member
Also, how many times do you see pictures of a tight group, but it's a couple of inches away from the aim point? What's the point of that?
In my case, the point would be that a tight group 2" over the point of aim at 100yds would be a hit at any range from 0 to 220yds or so.

So there!
:p
 

gixer1

Well-Known Member
In my case, the point would be that a tight group 2" over the point of aim at 100yds would be a hit at any range from 0 to 220yds or so.

So there!
:p
yup, mine was the same, the top 3 dots in the pic I posted were shot from left to right, I only adjusted on the third string and they were on the dot....I don't adjust until I've seen at least two groups that were in the same place...
 

bewsher500

Well-Known Member
So, you see a deer moving and don't have a safe shot. You jog for half a mile to get a safe shot on, stop and take a freehand shot and the deer is hit well and runs for thirty metres and goes down.

Please explain to me how the issue between factory and reload matters?

Stn
Added variables
If your marginal, heavy breathing, off hand shot is within the 1" outer margin of your intended target zone (I.e. Heart lungs liver, neck or dare I say it head!)
and your rifle can't stay under that 1 inch group ......you may have a runner

bigger the group on paper, higher the margin for missing that target zone under pressure


but in principle yes you are right
a good stalker/shooter can make a 2moa rifle more deadly than an inexperienced one with a bench rest rifle shooting in the 1's
 

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