Roe management - reading recommendations

[J@son]

I'm interested in reading up on roe management strategies and the consequences/implications of different approaches to selective culling. Can anyone recommend any particular titles? I'm more interested in strategies around managing and maintaining a healthy population than stalking techniques/anecdotes. For instance on one of my permissions I've got an excellent buck which I suspect I should cull this year on the basis that he's as good as going to get. I've also got a very promising replacement waiting in the wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

 

[TundB]

Roe Deer Management and Stalking by Richard Prior.
Second hands are available on all over the internet.

 

[Tim.243]

I'm interested in reading up on roe management strategies and the consequences/implications of different approaches to selective culling. Can anyone recommend any particular titles? I'm more interested in strategies around managing and maintaining a healthy population than stalking techniques/anecdotes. For instance on one of my permissions I've got an excellent buck which I suspect I should cull this year on the basis that he's as good as going to get. I've also got a very promising replacement waiting in the wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

Hope is the key word, there is no way to tell who has covered which doe also
The roe deer Capreolus capreolus is the only ruminant exhibiting delayed implantation, i.e. an embryonic diapause. The eggs are fertilised shortly after breeding, but remain in the uterus for 4.5 - 5 months before actual foetal development commences. Thus, roe deer have a total pregnancy period of 9.5 months.

From where I see all of this no disrespect but John Hammond tried this in Jurassic Park and see what happened there.

 

[VSS]

. For instance on one of my permissions I've got an excellent buck which I suspect I should cull this year on the basis that he's as good as going to get. I've also got a very promising replacement waiting in the wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

Define "an excellent buck".

 

[StephenToast]

Define "an excellent buck".

One that's vac packed in the freezer?

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Book wise anything by Richard Prior is pretty much the hold standard for information about Roe deer.

In terms of “management” shoot pretty much everything you see across all age ranges.

If you want to see improvements in the heads of your Roe bucks either provide habitat improvements such as warm woodland with a variety of year round browse and/or specific supplemental feeding.

 

[Pete6.5]

If trophies are your thing the better the bucks on the ground the better the chances that they are going to father the next generation (a dead buck can't farther anything) but you have to ask yourself is your ground got a chance of a good buck.most peoples ground couldn't get a good trophy buck on there what ever they do.

 

[Redj]

None of the titles below are specific to Roe alone but they’ve all been interesting reads.

Deer Management (Quality in Southern England) by Dominic Griffith.
The future for woodland Deer by Roger McKinley.
Management of Deer and their habitat (Principles and Methods) by A.J De Nahlik.

 

[Mungo]

I'm interested in reading up on roe management strategies and the consequences/implications of different approaches to selective culling. Can anyone recommend any particular titles? I'm more interested in strategies around managing and maintaining a healthy population than stalking techniques/anecdotes. For instance on one of my permissions I've got an excellent buck which I suspect I should cull this year on the basis that he's as good as going to get. I've also got a very promising replacement waiting in the wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

It’s not possible to ‘manage’ the gene pool. You have no control over, and next to no information on who’s mating with who. The traits you’re interested in (antler size, body size) are only very weakly heritable, and much more strongly influenced by food availability and environmental condition.

 

[Freeforester]

I'm interested in reading up on roe management strategies and the consequences/implications of different approaches to selective culling. Can anyone recommend any particular titles? I'm more interested in strategies around managing and maintaining a healthy population than stalking techniques/anecdotes. For instance on one of my permissions I've got an excellent buck which I suspect I should cull this year on the basis that he's as good as going to get. I've also got a very promising replacement waiting in the wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

Dominic Griffiths Book on Roe deer Management in the British Isles, count Albrecht von Bayern’s Apropos du Chevreuil/ Auf Der Reh, if you can read French/German respectively (not translated into English’s far as I know).

As stated above, the female passes on her genetics also, inherited from both her parents. Note that in terms of Genetics, unless there is inherently bad genes in a population, then the quality and aspect of their range has the greater impact - eg red deer calves taken off the hills of Balmoral and translocated to Windsor doubled their typical weight as adults within a generation, whereas muckle park stags taken to Scotland from the South ‘to improve blood lines’/trophy quality typically melt away within a few years of the harsh new reality they are faced with.

 

[Covert]

In my experience regarding Roe deer over many years, selective culling based on a visual basis is of little consequence to future generations.
It is at best naive and at worst arrogant if you think that playing god with Roe populations on a property in the UKwill have any significant effect.
There are so many variable outside of most Deer Managers control such as farming, forestry, climate, public pressure, RTC’s, poaching and neighbours to list but a few which have a far greater effect.

 

[wildfowler.250]

I’ve often wondered if age is the most important factor. Yes some bucks will have better genetics than others but given time to grow is likely just as important.

A button buck might make the cull sheet on numbers but who knows what it would have been in 5-6 years time. And from speaking to guides, a roe could be a top medal one year and then really go back the next. Hard to predict.

 

[baguio]

The other problem we have with this is that the vast majority of people simply shoot what is stood in front of them and then make up a reason why they shot it. Now, in the current climate of crazy high deer numbers, shooting everything is likely not a bad thing to do in a lot of species. Herding species however do often give you a chance to weed out the ones with poor traits first. Fish tailing fallow or drop points on red stags. Ultimately shooting more deer would be a good start to improving quality and keeping your stalking IMO. Deer hit on roads don't help the gene pool or make good eating.

 

[JH83]

I’d generally advice anyone to read ‘Practical Deerstalking’ by GK Whitehead, it was my bible in the early days.

But as mentioned Prior was as sharp a mind as any with regards roe stalking.

 

[J@son]

Roe Deer Management and Stalking by Richard Prior.
Second hands are available on all over the internet.

Copy ordered - thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Nickb]

In my experience regarding Roe deer over many years, selective culling based on a visual basis is of little consequence to future generations.
It is at best naive and at worst arrogant if you think that playing god with Roe populations on a property in the UKwill have any significant effect.
There are so many variable outside of most Deer Managers control such as farming, forestry, climate, public pressure, RTC’s, poaching and neighbours to list but a few which have a far greater effect.

Exactly this , I have been shooting roebucks for the last 30 years . If it's in front of me I will shoot it that's the best management

 

[Mungo]

wings.... However, if they were father and son, would it be better to take both in the hope of attracting fresh stock into the area and mixing up the gene pool a bit.

With reference to this specific question: the majority of the available evidence strongly indicates that most mammals are quite good at detecting relatives, and generally avoid mating with them. Close inbreeding (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister etc) is extremely rare, and generally only occurs when there are severe restrictions on a population.

I really wouldn’t worry about it. They sort themselves out.

 

[VSS]

With reference to this specific question: the majority of the available evidence strongly indicates that most mammals are quite good at detecting relatives, and generally avoid mating with them. Close inbreeding (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister etc) is extremely rare, and generally only occurs when there are severe restrictions on a population.

Well I've never heard that before, or seen any evidence to support it. I would be interested to read more, if you have any links?
Common sense would suggest that a dominant male of a herding species is most likely to mate with the best females within his range, which would in all probability be his sisters, daughters and mother.
(I accept roe may be different, due to not being a herd species).

.
I really wouldn’t worry about it. They sort themselves out.

One way or the other, they most certainly do!

 

[Mungo]

Well I've never heard that before, or seen any evidence to support it. I would be interested to read more, if you have any links?
Common sense would suggest that a dominant male of a herding species is most likely to mate with the best females within his range, which would in all probability be his sisters, daughters and mother.
(I accept roe may be different, due to not being a herd species).


One way or the other, they most certainly do!

I’ll dig out some references.

But there’s pretty good evidence (both behavioural and genetic) that females exercise much more choice than we used to think. The whole notion that females just passively accept whichever male wins the harem is increasingly discredited.

For instance red hinds in the long term Rum project are known to sneak off from harems at night to mate with other stags.

It breaks down when they have no choice (captive population, restricted movement etc).

 

[baguio]

With reference to this specific question: the majority of the available evidence strongly indicates that most mammals are quite good at detecting relatives, and generally avoid mating with them. Close inbreeding (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister etc) is extremely rare,

That's certainly the first that I have heard of it and I have read quite a few books on deer management so surprised that none of those books including those by Richard Prior mention that. They don't mention hinds choosing non related stags for mates in the Rum project either! Certainly not that I remember. It is a hard read though so I could be wrong?