Scottish independence?

captdavid

Well-Known Member
I am sure that to some, that this is a contentious issue. I have no intention of stirring up anything. would someone please give me an over view of this. Being from The US, a nation of many different peoples. We have regionalism But with one exception, The War Between The States, We have been United. That attempted break up was over two basic reasons. The south had an agricultural economy, based on plantations, that depended on slavery. The North's economy was small farm agriculture and manufacturing depending on individual workers. The other reason was 'States Rights. Simplified, this meant that the states had the right to act independently. The main argument, that the south had the right to have legal slavery and many, in the north believed they didn't. The other was that the states became part of the US freely and the north said once in, the states could not leave. After four years and three quarters of a million deaths, it became the United States 'IS,' not the United States 'Are!' English is not our official language. but most foreign language speaking immigrants are English speakers, by the second generations.
I know that Wales became under the English crown around the time of Henry II, who you probably know, never visited England nor spoke English. Scotland became under the English crown, with the death of Elizabeth I. Under James Stuart, who was then James I of England and VI of Scotland With some feeble attempts of independence it has been part of the UK since. From what I know Scotland participated in the expansion and growth and success of the British Empire, Helped win wars both small and large, including against Napoleon, WWI and WWII. Feel free to correct me if I have something wrong.

After over 400 years, would someone please explain why the Scots want to break away?

Again, please don't turn this into a pi$$ing contest. As a curious ex Highschool history teacher, I would like to know.

I would like to know when English became the common language of Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

capt david
 

Miki

Well-Known Member
I am sure that to some, that this is a contentious issue. I have no intention of stirring up anything.
<snip>
Captain.
If you know it's going to be contentious and stir things up, in the UK it's considered polite not to ask.
Saying "I don't want to upset you , but .." or "I don't want to be rude, however...' is rude and often upsetting, a mark of inconsideration or antagonism.

As a curious ex Highschool history teacher, I would like to know when English became the common language of Ireland, Wales and Scotland.
Not wanting to cast dispersions, but as a teacher of history, why don't you know ?
 

Pedro

Well-Known Member
So...I expect you know that there has always been some people in Wales and Scotland, and indeed Ireland that have wanted independence from the rest of the UK. It certainly didn't start with James I.

It's a really complicated issue. Of course Ireland (except for part of it) managed to get independence and became The Irish Free State, later, Eire. The northern counties though had a majority that wished to remain British. But a significant minority wanted to secede and join Eire. Hence the IRA and their violent methods, which, as I suspect you know bred violence from both sides for decades. I would be careful talking about such matters though as there are some members on here with direct experience of "The Troubles" and my few sentences are simply generalisations.

As for Wales, their independence movement is less vociferous but dates back to the time of Edward I, who built a string of castles in Wales to keep them in check. William I had similar designs on Scotland with the likes of William Wallace and Robert The Bruce opposing him (but this again is confusing because many of the Scottish Lords either sided with William or not, depending on what was on offer). This continued on for a few centuries with battles here and there during the campaign season and people attempting to grasp the Scottish crown.

Today, there is still a pretty strong minority in Scotland that want independence, led by the Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon and her party, the Scottish National Party. Most support for her and independence comes from the more populated areas of Scotland, mainly Glasgow and Dundee. But, again as you probably know, the recent vote in Scotland on independence resulted in defeat. Although that doesn't stop Sturgeon playing that record continually. Some say the Roman Emperor Hadrian had the best idea, building a wall to keep the Scots up there. I couldn't possibly comment.

Perhaps it's in the blood of the peoples of our islands. Wales and Scotland have their own assemblies now and have jurisdiction of many parts of government. As a whole, we have tried being part of Europe, which has financial benefits. But in the long run, the people (narrowly) voted to leave, for various reasons, the main ones being to control our own borders, maintain the right to make our own laws, keep our sovereignty and not become a United States of Europe. But the act of leaving is turning into a total clusterf*ck. But that's a whole different story.
 

McKenzie

Well-Known Member
You will have noticed the just shy of 70% of Scots voted to stay in the EU. I suspect we will have interesting times ahead if there's a no deal Brexit.
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
You will have noticed the just shy of 70% of Scots voted to stay in the EU. I suspect we will have interesting times ahead if there's a no deal Brexit.
I'd imagine that any outcome of the Brexit situation will lead to calls for another Scottish independence referendum. As you note, no deal brexit, and indeed even brexit with a deal, will lead to demands on the basis that they want to stay in the EU - i.e. to gain their independence in order to immediately surrender it. A second Brexit referendum would obviously justify a second Scottish referendum.
In the event of remaining, you may even subsequently find demands for an English referendum to secede from the EU and to dismantle the UK.
In short, for many Scots, there is no set of possible circumstances to which the answer is not independence. I view the SNP with much distaste and find their reasoning and policies absurd, but one can't dismiss people's wishes to be independent.
 

CarlW

Well-Known Member
Captain.
If you know it's going to be contentious and stir things up, in the UK it's considered polite not to ask.
Saying "I don't want to upset you , but .." or "I don't want to be rude, however...' is rude and often upsetting, a mark of inconsideration or antagonism.



Not wanting to cast dispersions, but as a teacher of history, why don't you know ?
Well said, Miki.

This is stirring, pure and simple. We don't need grenades like this chucked into our country right now. I speak as a half-English Welshman who loves the Highlands of Scotland more than life itself. No connections to NI, other than my strong and perhaps unhelpful, unionist beliefs that I shared on another thread.

I love you all, brothers!

Kind regards,

Carl
 

Heym SR20

Well-Known Member
I will turn the question back on the US - why did you all fight for "Freedom" from the British Crown?

And then why did all the different parts of the British Empire want "Freedom"

And why do we now want "Freedom" from Europe.

I have n't a clue. What I do know is that is an idea that conjured up by few in the political elite who then persuade the masses that "Freedom" will give give everybody untold riches and wealth.

Instead all that happens is lots of people suffer hugely, and a different the few in the political elite take over and stick their noses in the trough and become even wealthier.

If you go back to the American revolution - who actually benefitted - did it really change much for the average man - a huge number suffered in the war. Those who did benefit were the George Washington's et al who went on to gain huge wealth.
 

captdavid

Well-Known Member
In spite of all the ways, electorally and books, to get information, which is enormous, exactly how/where would one, be specific, go to get this information? As a history teacher, one must try to present unbiased facts, not biased opinions. I do not a consider myself a historian. I was proud to be a teacher.

As a World History teacher of 16yr olds, even though I basically teach Western Civilization, My subject is miles wide and inches deep. I have to cover A timeline that begins with Lucy and ends at the end 0f WWII. It is/was a daunting task. The good part of it, is that It allows me to spend time studying the parts of history that interested me. Over they years those interests have included such things, pertaining to Britian, as an example to the Plantagenets, Tudors, Stuarts and to lesser extent British naval history during the Napoleonic Wars among other parts predominantly having do to hunters.
 

CarlW

Well-Known Member
In spite of all the ways, electorally and books, to get information, which is enormous, exactly how/where would one, be specific, go to get this information? As a history teacher, one must try to present unbiased facts, not biased opinions. I do not a consider myself a historian. I was proud to be a teacher.

As a World History teacher of 16yr olds, even though I basically teach Western Civilization, My subject is miles wide and inches deep. I have to cover A timeline that begins with Lucy and ends at the end 0f WWII. It is/was a daunting task. The good part of it, is that It allows me to spend time studying the parts of history that interested me. Over they years those interests have included such things, pertaining to Britian, as an example to the Plantagenets, Tudors, Stuarts and to lesser extent British naval history during the Napoleonic Wars among other parts predominantly having do to hunters.
Captdavid.

To us, this is not just history: it is current affairs.

To us, this is not just of academic interest; it is real.

To us, the debate over the nations within the United Kingdom is not rational; it is deeply emotional and hurtful to people on all sides.

People have died as a result. People we know.

Don't play games with it just to entertain yourself as you watch the thread explode.

Best,

Carl
 

Cumbrian 1

Well-Known Member
I like Scotland, I like the scenery, some of the people, the stalking and the culture.

The wealth has flowed out of Scotland, Scotland is not owned by the Scottish people. My main business is commercial property investment predominantly sheds i.e. multi let industrial estates and large distribution sheds. Whenever I look to do deals in Glasgow, Inverness or Aberdeen I have never dealt with a vendor who is Scottish, I also own a commercial forestry portfolio and I have only ever purchased forestry in Scotland from English owners and when I sell it has always been to English investors despite it being advertised by a national agent (John Cleggs). I think this status quo has fuelled the Independence movement as it is rightly or wrongly seen as unfair.

The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 and the introduction of sporting rates is aimed only at damaging the large landowners the vast majority of which are not Scottish.
 

Hornet 6

Well-Known Member
Something I have never been able to work out.
Over the years Wales, Scotland and Ireland has wanted to be free from England, that we all know.
My question is why does England not want to let go ?
Ireland is divided, and neither Wales nor Scotland could afford to go it alone, but is that any reason to stop them trying ?

Neil.

PS: I'm 50% Scotish, but would have not be at all bothered if they want to go it alone.
 

Pedro

Well-Known Member
Independence for Scotland has always been contentious. At any time in history, there's been a big call for it, but also a big call for staying part of the EU. Financially it is better for Scotland to remain wed to the UK. But, although that is a factor, it's not the main one. If the Scots want to go it alone, then that should happen. At the latest count, they didn't, but as Apthorpe says, when Brexit is finalised, I shouldn't be surprised if there's not another referendum in the offing.

My view? Brexit has slowly become a pain in the rear. Independence for Scotland could go the same way. On both counts, I wish they'd both be sorted and we could move on. On a positive note, from a historical viewpoint, if these issues were being sorted 3 or 4 hundred years ago, it would be on the battlefield. So progress, of sorts.
 

captdavid

Well-Known Member
I will turn the question back on the US - why did you all fight for "Freedom" from the British Crown?
Economics. Britian restricted all trade must be between Britian and the colonies. we could not trade with any other nations, even though we might buy cheaper or sell higher. You also discouraged manufacturing. Land was virtualy free albeit stolen from the natives. Anyone had the opportunity to make his own fortune.

The colonies had no vote in parliament. Local government arose giving the colonies a touch of 'freedom' but higher officials/judges etc were appointed by the crown. Disputes could take months /years to settle due to many months trans-Atlantic communication.

The American colonists had become a separate people. We were no longer British we were Americans. Not all wanted independence. About 1/3 wanted independence, 1/3 were neutral more or less. and 1/3 remained loyal.

Within 100 years with good fortune and freedom the United States became a world power and a beacon for freedom.

Many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence died poorer than they were before independence. I believe it can be googled.

capt david

I know it's a light, 'hoaky.' musical, somewhat along the line of Gilbert and Sullivan, but if you get a chance you should watch "1776." It's simplistic, but will give one a view. capt david
 

Chasey

Well-Known Member
I am sure that to some, that this is a contentious issue. I have no intention of stirring up anything. would someone please give me an over view of this. Being from The US, a nation of many different peoples. We have regionalism But with one exception, The War Between The States, We have been United. That attempted break up was over two basic reasons. The south had an agricultural economy, based on plantations, that depended on slavery. The North's economy was small farm agriculture and manufacturing depending on individual workers. The other reason was 'States Rights. Simplified, this meant that the states had the right to act independently. The main argument, that the south had the right to have legal slavery and many, in the north believed they didn't. The other was that the states became part of the US freely and the north said once in, the states could not leave. After four years and three quarters of a million deaths, it became the United States 'IS,' not the United States 'Are!' English is not our official language. but most foreign language speaking immigrants are English speakers, by the second generations.
I know that Wales became under the English crown around the time of Henry II, who you probably know, never visited England nor spoke English. Scotland became under the English crown, with the death of Elizabeth I. Under James Stuart, who was then James I of England and VI of Scotland With some feeble attempts of independence it has been part of the UK since. From what I know Scotland participated in the expansion and growth and success of the British Empire, Helped win wars both small and large, including against Napoleon, WWI and WWII. Feel free to correct me if I have something wrong.

After over 400 years, would someone please explain why the Scots want to break away?

Again, please don't turn this into a pi$$ing contest. As a curious ex Highschool history teacher, I would like to know.

I would like to know when English became the common language of Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

capt david

I took Scotlands bid for independence seriously when they had oil, but not so much now

Basically its the psyche in this country (all of it I mean) we are not teem players, our attitude is screw everyone I am all right jack and we feel entitled I suppose its island mentality as well we are basically isolationist by nature. A typical UK person dreems of a house with no neighbors where they can do what they want when they want as loud as they like :D

Which is why theres free Scotland, Free Wales and believe it or not, even a Free Cornwall movement

Its just this isolationist streak on steroyds :D
 

Chasey

Well-Known Member
Economics. Britian restricted all trade must be between Britian and the colonies. we could not trade with any other nations, even though we might buy cheaper or sell higher. You also discouraged manufacturing. Land was virtualy free albeit stolen from the natives. Anyone had the opportunity to make his own fortune.

The colonies had no vote in parliament. Local government arose giving the colonies a touch of 'freedom' but higher officials/judges etc were appointed by the crown. Disputes could take months /years to settle due to many months trans-Atlantic communication.

The American colonists had become a separate people. We were no longer British we were Americans. Not all wanted independence. About 1/3 wanted independence, 1/3 were neutral more or less. and 1/3 remained loyal.

Within 100 years with good fortune and freedom the United States became a world power and a beacon for freedom.

Many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence died poorer than they were before independence. I believe it can be googled.

capt david

I know it's a light, 'hoaky.' musical, somewhat along the line of Gilbert and Sullivan, but if you get a chance you should watch "1776." It's simplistic, but will give one a view. capt david

We reely should do that in Europe you know :D
 

tackb

Well-Known Member
well as i'm in the mood due to sparring with chasey all day …….

Scottish independence , they had a vote and voted to stay , if there is another vote it should be by England NI and wales on whether we want to keep them as we didn't get a say last time
 

captdavid

Well-Known Member
Irish -Uk problems I will leave alone. I know some, but very little about it. The intensity reminds me of our War Between the States. The deep wounds that it caused have in some cases has lasted until today. I wish you well on that one.

What I don't understand is why, after 400yrs of being the United, on a small island no less now part of it wants to be un-united.

As far as knowing about bloodshed in the Scotish or Welch independents movements, I had no idea!
 

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