Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
Only to the point where you have too many deer and aren’t shooting enough so someone is going to have to at some point.
Shoot more Deer !
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John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Ah yes I do realise that but 99.9% of my online stuff is done desk jockey style but with substance...i need to be able to sit to post my wildlife/birds/deer photos in comfort.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
I believe that a lot of Gov Dept`s are staffed by 'less than sympathetic people to hunting,' its obvious that its happening here and there. DMSP`s are all geared to poison/choppers or gov contractors with the little man being left out in the cold. There will be no room for hunting in the future if hunter apathy remains as it is.
My excellent guide says that we only hunt not stalk Munties, so they represent targets of opportunity - I love hunting them in close cover, waiting at the edge of rides and on deer tracks. Demands much of field craft and shot placement, but then I’m a recreational stalker so I can see why others may not want to invest the time. Re. The main argument in this thread, If more Ground was available to recreational stalkers who eat their own, maybe there would be less reliance on disposal for cash through game dealers. Organised culls might address some but not all of the numbers required - I go when I can find one and take the carcasses, which I pay handsomely for. Just a thought…
Overlay
Well-Known Member
There is a lot at stake hereMidlands......try looking around the start of the A12 off the M25. And there are some serious numbers in that area.
But again if the landowners don't want them shot, there's little to be done. And if anyone on here has permission, they had better sort it out. So its not the stalkers problem, its the landowners. How many times do we see Youtube video of large numbers of Fallow running across roads. So who owns the grounds?? may be someone does stalk the area, possibly not ? I agree areas such as this need hitting hard.
Again I will say, that some of the stupid comments on here seem to be aimed at professional stalkers. If anyone thinks that full time stalkers are the cause of over population they are kidding themselves. Yes, there are people who have many acres, 10,000 plus or more, that are only recreational, or make a few quid at a weekend, but don't tar everyone with the same brush.
Everyone is side wise on looking at better deer control in the uk, there is a sort of a plan or template in scotland where as landowners are told what to do on Red etc
Looking to southern uk fallow are deemed the bad boy deer apart from size no different work wise same problem culling extraction and gamedealers
There are landowners that love them and vice versa a common problem all over
For me my concern is that if the government take to stepping in to sort - the face of stalking will change dramatically
Established areas of land circled for deer control - not individual farms or estates but areas, if your stalking is within that area your are in it, under a cull plan, monitoring, must comply, within that is training standard, nominated stalkers only of your choice for your area, that on its own will put the brakes on outfitters and denying a new or hobby stalker getting out and shutting the door experience training
Effectively a cull team that has to be compliant, that will shut down what we know as every stalkers dream of having your own stalking ground where you can go as you please and work to your cull plan team invite who you want etc etc
What’s the next thing - a trained team of culling stalkers on each farm within the area
Life will not be the same, farmers / landowners will contract out to pro stalker teams to keep it tidy, even outfitters will be affected and have to toe the line
There won’t be any grandad rights or get out clauses
It’s a job by that everyone is shouting for, but apart from pro contractors there will be a high cost to bear
My thoughts are it will be the single or non pro syndicates stalkers outfitters also will feel the brunt of any changes
That will end any informal training, and goodwill while breaking it all up to go with either a nominated syndicate culling team and in all probability landowners will go with a contractor as the easier route where everything is controlled with a paperwork trail with all eventualities covered for an easy life on insurance, RAMS all the required training all completed off site, chillers venision removal all on bag
My thoughts are We all need to put a bit of thought into what we wish for because it won’t be an easy transition for some and also a demise of some due to land loss permission lost
sikamalc
Administrator
I didn't say that they or anyone was crap, I said who ever was stalking on their would need to up their game. Don't put words in my mouth. Glad to see you have your usual polite input, as usualI will let the team know that you don’t think that the hundreds they have shot this winter is enough and they’re all crap! Obviously one season should have been plenty if they were any good!
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I manage ok by adjusting how I go about it as I said in a previous post, the daylight hours are a lot longer and MJ will (do) take the path of less resistance which is a headland or tram line.
You just need to adjust your timing as they run their lives by the clock,
granted I won't shoot the 2&3's of a session but like last evening I only saw one and he is in the chiller.
When you go out you learn something by giving up because you think you won't see one then you learn nothing.
I have seen 20 Fallow stand up in a wood in Aug where they were bedded down in deep cover with only the thermal pointing something out otherwise it was a wall of cover, with the milder seasons vegetation drops back only for a short time as we have little snow too lay on top of it.
People should be encouraged to go out as it keeps a presence on the land and there is always a chance!
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
It's easy to see where the accusation that "professional guides" are responsible for high deer numbers... It is in their business interest to have high numbers of deer on the ground.
Look at the advertising on here... I've got x1000 acres her and x1000 acres there.
Just picked up another xxx acres of good ground
Then the reviews...
"Went out with x saw loads of deer. Shot a medal buck"
"plenty of deer seen, shot a nice cull buck"
"No shortgage of deer... Managed a buck, spent 40 minutes gralloching and having a coffee before it got dark."
It doesn't take a genius to see that 1000's of acres are tied up by people who are happy to only shoot the odd male deer and then boast about it on sites like this.
Look at some of the videos on youtube, people walking past shootable deer, often females to get the "one" they are after, which inevitibly is a male.
There are a couple of places near me with this business model - I have said before, they are compensating their farmers to the tune of 10's of thousands of pounds for crop damage. You've got to be earning a lot from deer to have that make sense. Which I suppose is fine for them but it doesn't take into account the impact on the local area. They don't have to care. Their land, their decision how they manage it but they shouldn't be surprised when the finger gets pointed, or when their neighbours start shooting their "best stags"
In truth the problem has been caused by a whole host of issues. the BDS and their input into the deer act was the start, their continuing denial even now that deer are causing any sort of problem or that there are even that many of them.
People and organisations who are against the management of deer full stop, or carry it out but largely ineffectively.
Refuge areas where it is not possible by conventional means to manage deer and unconventional means being illegal.
The venison chain making it hard for people the offload carcasses
The use of the word "respect" to scorn anyone that dare mention that deer might be a problem and may need slightly tougher control or god forbid we might shoot a pregnant female deer, or use any method of technology, or shoot them in the dark.
Perfectly "respectable" to snare foxes though...
the list goes on.
Look at the advertising on here... I've got x1000 acres her and x1000 acres there.
Just picked up another xxx acres of good ground
Then the reviews...
"Went out with x saw loads of deer. Shot a medal buck"
"plenty of deer seen, shot a nice cull buck"
"No shortgage of deer... Managed a buck, spent 40 minutes gralloching and having a coffee before it got dark."
It doesn't take a genius to see that 1000's of acres are tied up by people who are happy to only shoot the odd male deer and then boast about it on sites like this.
Look at some of the videos on youtube, people walking past shootable deer, often females to get the "one" they are after, which inevitibly is a male.
There are a couple of places near me with this business model - I have said before, they are compensating their farmers to the tune of 10's of thousands of pounds for crop damage. You've got to be earning a lot from deer to have that make sense. Which I suppose is fine for them but it doesn't take into account the impact on the local area. They don't have to care. Their land, their decision how they manage it but they shouldn't be surprised when the finger gets pointed, or when their neighbours start shooting their "best stags"
In truth the problem has been caused by a whole host of issues. the BDS and their input into the deer act was the start, their continuing denial even now that deer are causing any sort of problem or that there are even that many of them.
People and organisations who are against the management of deer full stop, or carry it out but largely ineffectively.
Refuge areas where it is not possible by conventional means to manage deer and unconventional means being illegal.
The venison chain making it hard for people the offload carcasses
The use of the word "respect" to scorn anyone that dare mention that deer might be a problem and may need slightly tougher control or god forbid we might shoot a pregnant female deer, or use any method of technology, or shoot them in the dark.
Perfectly "respectable" to snare foxes though...
the list goes on.
big ears
Well-Known Member
Great post. Many issues voiced many of us feel. Sadly it will fall on deaf ears as the coin is king.
BE
baguio
Well-Known Member
Not one body, I agree. They now require teams and the places where this happens are doing well. One or two managers on big areas are ****ing in the wind.
baguio
Well-Known Member
Malc, I think you got out of the wrong side of the bed yesterday. Most of your posts appear to be very aggressive or disagreeable. Are you Ok? Genuine question!I didn't say that they or anyone was crap, I said who ever was stalking on their would need to up their game. Don't put words in my mouth. Glad to see you have your usual polite input, as usual
sikamalc
Administrator
Much like yours then. I didn't call anyone crap. I don't disagree with more deer being shot, when required. But I don't like people putting words up that I did not say. I'm fine thank you, getting older and less tolerant maybe.
south-nofolk-stalker
Well-Known Member
Well this is where everyone is I’m coming clean 
Your not stupid you all know who I am and my opinion hasn’t changed, but I am going to try very hard to be a tad more public friendly
Call me -
leec6.5 (for the few of the old timers left) , NDS or the above.
Malcolm and I have made peace
And yes I’m still shooting copper
.
Right back to business,
I don’t know what will end up happening, I fully understand there are those who earn a living from deer and there are those who’s living is being wrecked by deer there seems to be no happy medium.
The fundamental basics are the same as they have been for the last decade or so
The herd species are out of control
No market for the carcasses (my opinion of freds In a shed are the same!)
Venison NEVER has been and NEVER will be a staple of the masses that is a FACT. (Well not on the last 20 odd years anyway)
But if something drastic doesn’t happen soon got knows what will happen.
Your not stupid you all know who I am and my opinion hasn’t changed, but I am going to try very hard to be a tad more public friendly
Call me -
leec6.5 (for the few of the old timers left) , NDS or the above.
Malcolm and I have made peace
And yes I’m still shooting copper
.Right back to business,
I don’t know what will end up happening, I fully understand there are those who earn a living from deer and there are those who’s living is being wrecked by deer there seems to be no happy medium.
The fundamental basics are the same as they have been for the last decade or so
The herd species are out of control
No market for the carcasses (my opinion of freds In a shed are the same!)
Venison NEVER has been and NEVER will be a staple of the masses that is a FACT. (Well not on the last 20 odd years anyway)
But if something drastic doesn’t happen soon got knows what will happen.
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Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
The change isn’t great and to be honest it’s not even working up here in Scotland with s7 etc but we have to bear in mind that it’s stalkers who have got us into the mess we are in.
Not all stalkers by any means and there are land owners who certainly don’t help but if our sole defence is that it’s going to ruin it for the current stock of stalkers then we aren’t going to find much sympathy because in reality ‘we’ are doing a pretty poor job on a landscape scale.
Too many people look at it as a nice afternoon wander out - it should be looked at as a job to be done. There needs to be a shift in attitude all round because land owners are also expecting big money for their deer
To be fair, you didn't disguise yourself very well, did you?Well this is where everyone is I’m coming clean
Your not stupid you all know who I am and my opinion hasn’t changed, but I am going to try very hard to be a tad more public friendly
Call me -
leec6.5 (for the few of the old timers left) , NDS or the above.
Malcolm and I have made peace
And yes I’m still shooting copper
Right back to business,
I don’t know what will end up happening, I fully understand there are those who earn a living from deer and there are those who’s living is being wrecked by deer there seems to be no happy medium.
The fundamental basics are the same as they have been for the last decade or so
The herd species are out of control
No market for the carcasses (my opinion of freds In a shed are the same!)
Venison NEVER has been and NEVER will be a staple of the masses that is a FACT. (Well not on the last 20 odd years anyway)
But if something drastic doesn’t happen soon got knows what will happen.
David Barker
Well-Known Member
You are correct Dan it is not working in Scotland we have more deer now than we had 20 years ago when the war against deer started. The problem i see is deer managers in general want more deer. I carried our a survey and 77% wanted to see more deer on there ground. This included contractors and Ranger,s. This is not abut the Guides this is every one. Contractors are guilty of wanting more deer (Its there wage normally in the winter) The Scottish government have shot them selves in the foot removing male deer season just to cut down a wee bit paperwork for Authorisations. We now have the 77% of deer managers able to shoot unwanted male deer and leave the females to breed. We also have 90% of the local authority,s say they will not control deer on there areas including large brown field sites and NGO areas.
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sikamalc
Administrator
Correct.
Things have changed dramatically over the years, and having large areas to manage has never been easy. Each landowner has his/her own ideas of what they require. But some are just after a large sum of money to shoot deer. Others are happy to give it to you for free, keeping deer numbers down, others have recreational stalkers doing the job well, or not so well. There are so many different variables.
There may well be professional outfitters/stalkers retaining more ground than they are capable of managing. You cant be in the two places at the sametime, and some people are reluctant to share ground. Who can blame them for that, when some people just go behind your back.
Some of my ground I share with the 3 Guides that stalk for me. One in particular has free range within reason over all my areas. One area for CWD is shared between all three of us. So I for one do not keep ground all to myself, as the deer still need to be managed according to the wishes of the landowner.
One of my areas which I have stalked for in excess of 20 plus years has recently seen an increase in Muntjac numbers. They have also got a preservation order on two wood lots on the estate, which numbers roughly 2,500 acres. Most, if not all the damage I have seen is not damage by Muntjac..................its Hare damage. There are a lot of Hares on this keepered estate, but the owner does not want them shot. But we have doubled the cull this last winter on Muntjac, although the principle deer are CWD, Muntjac are present, along with the odd Roe, which are new to this part of the world. Again the owner has asked me not to shoot the Roe.
If this was Fallow he no doubt would be ripping his hair out.
In my opinion, for what its worth, I cannot at present see the government doing much at all. Lets face it they couldn't p.ss into the wind straight, and no doubt will be more interested in banning firearms altogether, if Labour, get in. Which seems to be the case at present. I doubt deer will be at the top of their agenda for the time being.
Passing some of the blame onto people who make a living out of deer is ridiculous. There are huge tracts of land where deer are not shot, and also smaller areas where they are encouraged, usually right next door to your stalking, where they spend all day, and then find their way onto your ground at about 11pm.
Large populations need large management. I have had some huge leases in the past. One now called Croik Estate, which was Forest Farm many years back, we were on a penalty clause. We had to shoot the amount requested each year, especially the hinds. This area is north of Inverness and was around 13,000 acres. In 10 years of running it I never failed. This was all Red and Sika. But we still respected what we took, and although we had a target to reach we still showed respect for what we shot. This again I shared with some stalking friends, with the hind cull.
I am rather of the old age of tradition, and respect for what I hunt and shoot, that's me, I'm not changing for anyone. But I agree we are now at somewhat of an impasse where stalking has changed and numbers with certain species, such as Fallow are ridiculous. To me the Covid issue, has caused some of this issue, as few could get out to cull, who's business depended on it, but without clients. Syndicate or individual were generally not allowed, unless it was or is their full time profession. Most constabularies would not except it otherwise. Hence the huge numbers developing over a winter with little or no culling being undertaken.
This subject has shown the kind of rift that stalking faces. But it does none of us any good by laying the blame at anyone's door, professional or otherwise.
An addition as I have just read the above post. There we have it, the Scottish government allowing stags to be shot all year round. Most estates that rely on selling their stags are NOT going to shoot stags all year. Controlling numbers is down to shooting hinds and does. This is typical of any government, and does anyone think Westminster will be any different? They are all a joke.
This is where there is a rise of community larders , one of the things I have noticed in Scotlands latest consultation is that they want to do away with the venison Dealers Licence or VDL , this will make it easier for communities to create their own larder giving localised produce a chance to get back on local tables.
Community larder have had their flaws in the past due to VDL and volume and poor management but they can work
Community larder have had their flaws in the past due to VDL and volume and poor management but they can work
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
This was a problem long before Covid. Anyone blaming the pandemic is looking for excuses.
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