Shotgun slap

BryanDC

Well-Known Member
#21
Beretta 686 EELL.

I really am torn to getting major work done to it to make it fit me, as it would be very difficult to sell personalised if I ever changed my mind, however I long for a gun that feels totally natural to shoot with.
I understand what you mean with a game gun for life with the EELL. I guess it comes down to having confidence in it. I think I would try to borrow something else, maybe a browning style and see how it goes before deciding which way to go. My Beretta just feels right to me and as you say feels totally natural to shoot.
 

SDC7x57

Well-Known Member
#22
Have to agree with enfieldspares.....tried a few different places, then bit the bullet and went to Holland & Holland. It cost about £300 (when I went...) and Chris Bird measured me for SxS and o/u. I assumed they'd be the same , but no... It was all done with try-guns. I finally found myself breaking clays off their high tower with a side by side, and no recoil - both of which were a new experience for me!! I asked Chris (niaive to the last..) why the recoil was so light, only to be told that I was only shooting 5/8 oz loads and then reminded that if I put the shot in the right place, the clay will break. He then told me, 'See you in ten years'. Apparently as we age, we change (don't I know it!!), and they recommend a check periodically.

My experience of Beretta guns in the past is that there is very little cast-off on them. Straight as a poker, was one comment. But there is NO reason why you cannot get the stock adjusted to your correct fit on and O/U. Both my guns have 7/16" cast-off (short and wide....), and they're Brownings with a through bolt.

Good luck getting it sorted out.
 
#23
OTOH you could just get a Greener GP and shoot it (as it was intended to be shot) like a rifle! Using that notch on the Martini body as your rearsight. It'll certainly teach you about lead. Everyone at some time or other should have a Greener GP. It is a most useful tool for teaching lead on a target.
 

FISH BOY

Well-Known Member
#24
.

My experience of Beretta guns in the past is that there is very little cast-off on them. Straight as a poker, was one comment. But there is NO reason why you cannot get the stock adjusted to your correct fit on and O/U. Both my guns have 7/16" cast-off (short and wide....), and they're Brownings with a through bolt.

Good luck getting it sorted out.
Yes I would agree that they are very straight. I also have a Beretta A400 Unico semi auto that I use on the pigeons and when placed on one the other the cast is almost identical.

The A400 due to its clever recoil systems is much more user friendly, but still taps me occasionally.
 

McKenzie

Well-Known Member
#25
I put an 'Easy Hit' fibre-optic front bead on my shotguns as I also have issues with lifting my head; EasyHit UK Ltd | Fibre Optic Shotgun sight, Sporting glasses

I would say that one of the things that has really helped my shooting (& understanding of gun fit) has been to get a gun with an adjustable comb. If I choose to I can change the angle of the cheek-piece from the conventional downwards to the rear angle to something that's closer to parallel with the barrels & hence get less 'slap', although you would need to check that the fit still worked for you in different positions. You can even swap the wooden comb for a rubber one.
 

FISH BOY

Well-Known Member
#26
OTOH you could just get a Greener GP and shoot it (as it was intended to be shot) like a rifle! Using that notch on the Martini body as your rearsight. It'll certainly teach you about lead. Everyone at some time or other should have a Greener GP. It is a most useful tool for teaching lead on a target.
Funny you should mention that as my clay scores have gone to pot since getting serious with my rifles over the last couple of years. I think that switching disciplines weekly is also adding to the conundrum.
 

Tim.243

Well-Known Member
#27
All well and good people spending your cash upwards of £300!

My money is on you wont go to H&H

Not using your gun a lot also with it not fitting you, is the direct result of the lump you get every time.

If the barrels are not in line with your sight picture then you will push you head over to archive that, with all guns the place you rest you cheek against the stock needs to be in the right place much the same as the height of scope with all the low-medium-high rings.

I have not long fitted a drone 10 nv to my .243 and was all over the place until I packed up the stock as the unit is higher than the Kahales on medium rings I've had on there for 7 years.

It is a R/H rifle and I am L-H, My .270 is the same...

As first posted my shot guns all have had a left cast put in them. ( not H&H prices )

The stocks are all the same length and so are the barrels, the 425 is 1/2lb more as it is 3"

The only thing I don't do is go out foxing after using the shot gun all day on pigeons/ducks etc
(A) because I will be tired (B) I have tried it and snatched the trigger missing a fox.

You will see in replies on here people who only type on what they have done back in the day...:lol:

Tim.243
 

victormeldrew

Well-Known Member
#28
I have a similar problem with a Silver Pigeon, plus every now & again it belts me on the bicep. For the little shotgun shooting I do I'll continue to live with the problems which I feel are down to my poor mounting.
I agree with Tim243 that your occasional use is not helping, but if there are errors in fit and/or technique you will never shoot to your full potential. I certainly do appreciate your comment about wanting a gun that fits well & feels natural.

Some have recommended visiting gun shops & trying various makes, but imo this is not the best solution. Suppose you find a gun in the shop which feels good & you even get the chance to try before buying. You have said that your problem happens occasionally, so your new gun may not solve the problem (it would be easy to shoot better during your trial when you are concentrating) but you wouldn't know until later.
I appreciate that extra cost is involved, but suggest that the best solution is to visit a good gun coach (ideally a try-gun should be available) before making any purchase to check both your technique & the fit of your gun. Quite how you find a genuinely good coach I'm not sure. Hollands certainly seem to be a viable option, but no doubt there are others.
You appear to like the EELL & if some modification is needed & you wish to use it for a few years, then it would be money well spent.

Please don't take offence at my comments regarding your technique, I know only too well how easy it is to develop bad habits.

Regarding your declining scores, I think this has more to do with lack of shotgun practice than change of discipline to a rifle. I know a couple of professional stalkers who are excellent clay shots.

Good Luck

victor
 

tarponhead

Well-Known Member
#29
Beretta 686 EELL.

I really am torn to getting major work done to it to make it fit me, as it would be very difficult to sell personalised if I ever changed my mind, however I long for a gun that feels totally natural to shoot with.
Too nice a gun to mess about with. Have some lessons on pheasant targets - you may be covering the bird with the barrels and lifting your head to see where its gone. Its just a habit that needs to be eliminated. It happens to me, so I stare the bird to death and have a very solid mount before I pull the trigger. Works for me. Have a great season.
 
#30
When I swop from Rifle to clay shooting my scores drop so I would say there is a tendency to alter your natural ability when on clays. A rifle is to a degree hugged to make a deliberate shot, where as a shotgun is mounted and moved to make the kill/clay. So' are you gripping to tight on clays that your shooting at and getting the slap and are those targets especially missed in your opinion?

BC.
 

FISH BOY

Well-Known Member
#31
When I swop from Rifle to clay shooting my scores drop so I would say there is a tendency to alter your natural ability when on clays. A rifle is to a degree hugged to make a deliberate shot, where as a shotgun is mounted and moved to make the kill/clay. So' are you gripping to tight on clays that your shooting at and getting the slap and are those targets especially missed in your opinion?

BC.
To be honest I just don't know when and what targets cause it - its become so regular that I have just put up with it and carry on. I don't believe I am hugging the shottie any more than I used to, but you are right that I am finding myself more in the aim, than the natural swing and see it shoot it mentality.

Going sunday with a note pad.
 

paul o'

Well-Known Member
#32
I have 686's had more than a few over the years I'v have had all of them moved over by Brain Farr of foulness Island . I can't understand your dealer telling you it can't be done any shotgun smith that deals with wood can bend any stock steam them place them in the jig job done . As to price at worst his cost to me has never been over £40 a time
 

danban

Well-Known Member
#33
K D Radcliffe can alter stocks and it will cost about £80 it won't alter the value of the gun. It will make you shoot better and you won't have a bruise on your face.
I had my beretta done and it's now a pleasure to use.
Regards Dan

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk
 

FISH BOY

Well-Known Member
#34
So....

I went this morning and shot a 73/100 and came home with a lump, even using 24/8s.

I must admit I was trying to concentrate for once and pals watched me for a couple of stands and said that I wasnt moving my head.

Couple of things I noticed.

The straighter (closer to my neck) I had the stock, the less I felt.

Although hitting the targets I seemed to get a small whack when shooting incoming pairs on the second bird. With the first one killed, it was then the second higher but dropping fast one which hit me.

Was gun up the whole time bar the last stand with a going away bird. By testing ourselves to be ready when the gun was closed, some were instant, some were a 30 sec delay with no call. Shooting gun down trying to catch a fast away sealed the deal resulting in a nice lump for lunch.

Keen to keep the gun as she really is stunning to look at and a symbol of considerable effort, so will have to book up and see what another fitter has to say.
 

tarponhead

Well-Known Member
#35
So....

I went this morning and shot a 73/100 and came home with a lump, even using 24/8s.

I must admit I was trying to concentrate for once and pals watched me for a couple of stands and said that I wasnt moving my head.

Couple of things I noticed.

The straighter (closer to my neck) I had the stock, the less I felt.

Although hitting the targets I seemed to get a small whack when shooting incoming pairs on the second bird. With the first one killed, it was then the second higher but dropping fast one which hit me.

Was gun up the whole time bar the last stand with a going away bird. By testing ourselves to be ready when the gun was closed, some were instant, some were a 30 sec delay with no call. Shooting gun down trying to catch a fast away sealed the deal resulting in a nice lump for lunch.

Keen to keep the gun as she really is stunning to look at and a symbol of considerable effort, so will have to book up and see what another fitter has to say.
From your description, its a gun mount issue - you might be relaxing a little after the first bird and then a poor mount on the second bird gives you a slap. Buy a lesson before you spend money on the gun and concentrate on staying mounted with your barrels positions ready for the second shot. Field Sports Britain has had a few recent episodes with top shots talking about second target acquisition. Which bird do you miss the most - 1st or 2nd?
 
#36
One last thought. If 24 gram loads in an over and under are causing you uncomfortable recoil there's an issue. But it is usually stock fit.

I've shot a Holland & Holland .470 Nitro Express double with less felt recoil than a 20 Bore. And I can and do shoot 1 1/16 ounce (and 1 1/8 ounce - although not as a matter of habit) loads through my own quite lightweight Boss 12 Bore with no recoil issues. But assuming that it isn't stock fit (usually too short a stock or the comb is wrong for you) or poor gun mount recoil can also be a result of:

1) Badly cut rims in the gun. That is to say they are cut deep and so the cartridge is loose to move backwards and forwards in the chamber. So as long as you are aware of the safety issues that need to be considered consider this. Put an unfired cartridge in the gun and close it. Now by shaking the gun listen or "sense" if there is movement of the cartridge. See also 4).

2) Or it can also be caused by an abrupt or sharp edged forcing cone in front of the chamber. Such forcing cones were a factor on many of the RAF issue BSA boxlock ejectors such that with plastic cased cartridges they kick lick the proverbial mule regardless that they are are normal weight gun. But on a modern gun the chambers should be properly tapered for today's plastic cartridges.

But a proper gunsmith can check and rectify it. You can even check it yourself by using a cut with a flat 90 degree end rod of metal, wood, plastic to see if you can feel an edge.

3) So if the headspace is OK. And the forcing cones are a taper and not abrupt it may be that your chokes are the culprit? That they have an abrupt change from barrel bore to choke constriction. Are they fixed or screw-in? It is the same unpleasant effect as in 3) but not quite as soon! Still feels just as bad!

4) The gun barrels are off the face which has the same effect on felt recoil for the reasons noted at 1).

So it is probably stock fit but it may still be worth checking the headspace and forcing cone and choke issues and if it is headspace then try a brand of cartridges that uses a different make of case. That may be difficult as many British loaders use the same continental made cases.

Or try the Gordon type case that has a visible plastic base. Which is supposed to reduce felt recoil. Gamebore (not a brand I personally like or use) are still I think the sole British cartridge loader of the Gordon system. It may be worth trying a box?
 
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#37
So some the things you mention can cause your problem and ill go through them and explain why.
"Im lifting my head – no idea how to solve that" if the target goes out of your sight picture, you will lift your head and then the stock hits your cheek. The sight picture goes if the stock is to low in the comb, so you have to lift your head to see, or if you footwork[placement]is poor, stopping swing on oncoming or outgoing birds.
"Comb on the gun is just too high" this will not cause it, if it did every trap shooter would have the problem as the comb on trap guns is fixed a lot higher than game or sporting guns. What it would cause is constant misses above crossing targets.
"Comb on the gun is too low causing it to rise" as explained in the lifting head.

Pick the gun up, mount it 2-or3 times with your eyes shut, then when your happy on the final mount, cheek well placed on the stock etc, open your eyes and you should see the end bead and almost a runway vision of the top rib. If you are looking at the top lever the comb is to low.
I know of a number of people who have been fitted for guns by various gun shops and they have been a mile out. A good friend went to Avalon guns and they sold him a gun that fitted "like a glove", yet at 20 yard he constantly missed a stationary a4 sheet, above and to the left. so don't take anyones word for it.
Hope this is of some help.
 

BryanDC

Well-Known Member
#39
From your description, its a gun mount issue - you might be relaxing a little after the first bird and then a poor mount on the second bird gives you a slap. Buy a lesson before you spend money on the gun and concentrate on staying mounted with your barrels positions ready for the second shot. Field Sports Britain has had a few recent episodes with top shots talking about second target acquisition. Which bird do you miss the most - 1st or 2nd?
I would agree with this. Especially the second shot on a pair of incoming. It is natural to lift you head after the first shot to find the target. It sounds like a mounting issue. Mechanically I doubt if there is anything wrong with your gun but that doesn't rule out the possibility of a little extra cast helping if it helps your mount.
 
#40
How tall are you?
What is your eye dominance like?

You describe a situation that I myself have gone through

My eye dominance changed to full left when I was about 19 (I am and shoot RH)
screwed up my shotgun shooting to no end....to this day!

it did however allow me to shoot rifles with not only both eyes open but with a twin screen effect!

I am also 6' 4" and have been shooting "short for me" guns all my life
every now and then I get a belt on the cheek when using someone else's gun.

it is invariably down to the fit


Often the polished rubber silvers pads exacerbated the effect as the mount was not positive and I was not getting a solid position into my shoulder
You highlighted this when you got a slap on the second bird.

At a guess I would say the position you hold for the first shot involves you "crunching" up in shoulders, arm, neck and cheek to make the gun fit.
possibly rolling your head over to make up for poor fit and maintain sight picture

if you lose a bird and lift your head or even through the swing are re-positioning your head you are coming away from the stock.
The gap allows inertia to slap rather than shove

As a 40 something I learned that eye dominnance shift at this age is normal.
Worse still is its not truly dominant one way or the other

The pointed finger test shows my Right eye is definitely dominant but the left is still giving me an interference.
Leaves me with a double picture when trying to focus on the bead with the target in sight


The guns that fit ME now have much more cast than I was used to at around 5/8"
They are invariably longer at 15 3/4"- 16" LOP
They have less actual drop as the increased length of pull puts my cheek much further back.

head is straight not cocked
elbow at 90deg
hand away from my nose
mount feels positive without thinking about it

you can do much of this yourself with tape, foam and some DIY
EELL aside you can cover the stock before you start going all Art Attack on it.
 

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