Should DMQ 1 be law?

[enfieldspares]

Let's face it the DSC course are there to make money for the organisers.

And, please, tell me the relevance if I only ever shoot in England of knowing the seasons for Scotland? Or N. Ireland?

The whole thing is an nonsense, sold as a "fit for purpose" scheme, but actually a make money scheme for DMQ.

If there are to be "tests" then they should be taken away from DMQ and government administered at a nominal fee as in France.

It costs how much to sit a DSC 1? And how much to take the written part of the British Driving Test?

 

[Dovebob]

Some really interesting themes coming through on this thread.

I think the scenario set out in Monkey Spanker's last post (the golf course worker who wants to shoot deer but knows nothing about shooting) demonstrates that some form of training, be it formal through DSC1 or informal through mentoring is, in reality albeit not in actual law, required before most FEO's will issue a FAC.

It is also interesting to hear Harry Macs point that compulsory training in the rest of Europe does not lead to fewer accidents.

One argument in favour of compulsory training in the UK is that it could remove many of the current inconsistencies in firearms licensing that arise every day on this forum.

However, I still prefer the current system in which it is the responsibility of the applicant to demonstrate to the FEO what steps they have taken to gain experience and get themselves properly trained before applying for a ticket. As I see it, being issued with a FAC (or shotgun certificate for that matter) places a responsibility on the recipient, who is trusted (by the police acting in the interests of UK citizens) to behave properly with the firearms received. For that reason I think it is appropriate that the firearms licensing system should oblige new FAC applicants to be self starting in demonstrating how they have gained their training/experience rather than simply setting them a series of compulsory tests. This allows different applicants to draw on different types of experience and training. Some will use vocational experience gained from accompanying experienced stalkers. Others will rely on formal training such as DSC1 etc. Either way, opportunities for people to enter the sport are maximised.

 

[JC275]

Guys, I'm not going to comment on the compulsary training issue but I have to question the DSC1 only there to make money comments. If you compare the costs to chainsaw courses, pesticide courses, digger courses etc I think you will find that DSC1 is pretty good value. When I say this I am talking about a proper, four day DSC1 Instruction and assessment not a two day 'coach you through the tests' type DSC1 like some of the lesser training providers do. Also, I am comparing it to the true cost of the other courses as many of these are subsidised by EU funding etc.

Having said this, who cares? DMQ is a voluntary scheme despite what people say. If its not for you then fine. Will it, or something similar, become compulsary? I think we are probably heading that way and it might just be that you will be grateful if DSC1 is chosen as so many people already have it. Unless you would all rather take another course as well?
JC

 

[bambislayer]

I voted NO

But I do believe in training, it should however be industry led.

One of the things that I am most proud of and makes the UK special is our Fieldsports and out traditions, yes our traditions are not as old as many other countries but by and large our shooting scene is safe and mannerly.

I was at a reception at the chapel at Saint Hubertus in the Ardennes [You should go, an amazing place] and there were reps from hunting orgs from around Europe. The rep. from Hungary who was an old aristocrat looked at the gathered hunters and stated, " Never shoot or hunt with a chap belonging to a country without a monarch, anywhere that has had a revolution is dangerous, they are all anarchists , don't know there place and see hunting as a right when in fact it is a privelage"

I have thought long and hard about this statement and although I disagreed at the start after much thought I kind of agree.


By and large the UK shooting scene, whether it be wildfowling or stalking is in a good shape , well organised and mostly self regulating, we have good representative bodies [although we all moan about them].

The "hunters" in the UK should be advising government on the way forward, and we can take this leed and in many cases do.

I say embrace training and take it forward ourselve, if we don't it will be impossed.

 

[bambislayer]

every word of this is true!!! spoken like a true professional!!ps how much is your hind stalking??

Steyr

No prices at the moment, where I shoot most of my hinds they really had a bad time of it with the snow, because of this we are really watching numbers.
I spoke to the keeper last night and we've agreed in only 20 stags this year which is half the usual and if they are not showing during the season we will drop the number.
We are going to have to monitor hinds carefully and will count calves in Oct the week after the stags finnish and make a desision on numbers then depending on the calving survival. I have plenty return trade so everyone has been told to wait till Oct and we'll see what we can do then.


Sorry off topic

 

[Monkey Spanker]

The fact that Germany with it's compulsory training has far more shooting related accidents than here according the ROSPA figures is not an issue?

QUOTE]

Do you not think that a large number of testosterone and adrenalin fueled hunters in a line, shooting at adrenalin fueled large animals whilst running might make their statistics slightly higher?!

I'm still not suggesting that training be made law either. It should be down to the judgement of the FEO as it is now. However, the culture of litigation which we now live in dictates that an audit trail must be there to cover anyones ass who has dared to put their signature on a piece of paper! Someone who has spent a lifetime shooting that wants to progress onto deer might only need a DSC 1 'conversion' course. Someone like my golf course worker might need a little more!! However, the DSC would have given him education about seasons etc, and he would have passed a basic safety and shooting test which sadly would cover him in the eyes of the law!
Any decent FEO would see that he would benefit from a period of mentoring and hopefully insist on it as I wouldn't fancy a round of golf on that course otherwise!
No two applicants will ever be the same and it takes a certain level of common sense to judge whether they are suitable or not. Most FEO's I have met are capable of making that decision. I'm sure there are some that aren't and will no doubt err on the side of caution. My local FEO has a full military career behind him as well as a lifetime of shooting. He has already done his DSC 1 to give him more credibility and now wants me to take him through his level 2. Surely it is better for someone like him to make a decision based on common sense than the state to decide that we must all have both DSC 1 & 2!
Maybe that would be the answer then??
Then we would be sure that everyone has had both theoretical and practical training! Surely that would benefit everyone's safety and the welfare of the deer?
Be careful what you wish for! We might well be better off as we are!?
MS

 

[Brithunter]

The "British" government will never take advice form the people who actually do the thing. never! They are so bogged down in their own importance . Most of the little pen pushers believe that they know best about everything yet they probably know diddly squat about most things in life. They have created their empire on bits of paper, it won't be long before you need a bit of paper to go and take a dump.. It's communism via the back door needing "state" permission to do everything and in the last 13 years it has run amock through Whitehall..

When I first started to have a really keen interest in stalking I asked about but no one I knew well was actively involved, there were a couple in the gun club but they were of the upper class and an oily oik like me was not really welcome outshooting they on range days didn't help methinks . So I did some digging and found Roger Buss at DMS I think it was called and went on a Weekend Woodland Stalking Appreciation course where I learnt quite a bit. Of course this was before the DSC, there was the other deer course that I cannot recall the name of now. Anyway I then used his Named Land permit scheme to get up on the first rung, later through an introduction from Mr Buss I became a client of a Mr Yates who sadly is no longer with us and through him to the gentleman who has become my sort of stalking mentor. He has been a gamekeeper, deer manager and stalker for about the same time I have been alive and I ain't no spring chicken as our US friends would say. Have learnt a lot more and enjoyed some wonderful times stalking and just visiting him and his family. Sadly due to ill health his stalking has been guzumped by the Pheasent keeper on the estate and the the rights sold to some Belguim who of course will be there every week to manage the deer ................................. I think not.

Funny thing is though the old boy don't have the DSC nor it's forerunner yet was considered qualified enough to run a Lord's deer park and the management of his Scottish Estate until the death duties required the break up of the estate and he was made redundant so went on his own. Now according to some like the FC he is not qualified to stalk their land talk about the tail wagging the dog.

 

[enfieldspares]

However, I still prefer the current system in which it is the responsibility of the applicant to demonstrate to the FEO what steps they have taken to gain experience and get themselves properly trained before applying for a ticket.

For that reason I think it is appropriate that the firearms licensing system should oblige new FAC applicants to be self starting in demonstrating how they have gained their training/experience rather than simply setting them a series of compulsory tests.

+1. Exactly as it should be.

And on the whole I find that the safest "shots" are those had some form of military training that whatever else it does teaches "muzzle awareness".

In fact I would go so far as to say that apart from solid grounding in "muzzle awareness" and the importance of "backstops" that little else is needed.