Siberian Roe hybrids

sh1kar

Well-Known Member
Prompted by the feeding to improve antler quality and the assertion genetics is a dominant factor in trophy quality I wondered if, in the UK, Siberian Roe had ever been introduced to hybridise for bigger antlers. I am assuming SR are a true sub species with this bigger antler distinguishing feature as against merely eating better (eg Scottish Reds taken to NZ and creating monsters with the same basic genetics as our hill reds)

I saw a number of SR heads in a hunting lodge in Macedonia and they were of very impressive proportions

Clearly a whole raft of ethical and environmental issues associated re polluting a natural species, but intrigued nonetheless

S
 
Yes I saw that but some other studies particularly around Moscow area apparently show an 11% hybridisation rate in dna samples of the populations there

S
 
(eg Scottish Reds taken to NZ and creating monsters with the same basic genetics as our hill reds)


S

The Kiwi red deer you speak of, are the product of several sub species (& very selective breeding), not just basic C e scoticus genetics. Warnham & Woburn blood lines do feature heavily in NZ reds, but these lines are "Park deer", & not your indigenous species. Most "recipes" for predictable heritability & "vigour" include some German & Yugo genetics for length & mass.

Sharkey

Edit to add.
It would be interesting to see if these Kiwi reds could actually survive on the "hill" now. I doubt it.
 
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Yes, Siberian roe are a different sub species of Capreolus and I have also heard of hybridisation on the fringes of their range. I have never heard of any being released in the UK though. I guess the main problem is, as happened with other strains of imported reds and Wapiti when tried here - the genes are very quickly diluted.

I think feeding/climate (associated factors) affects size/quality more than strain (ref Oz/NZ) as proven when English park reds were released on the hill in Scotland in the 19 century and the animals 'blended in' often after a year or so.

Nick
 
I'm certain I've read of Siberian releases in England, maybe around Woburn? I'd have to have a flick through a few books, but from memory they were adjudged to have died out without any noticeable improvement in local stocks.

Novice
 
I gather that was an accidental escapee from the park at Woburn (there is none in the park now.) I'm not sure at that time (1887-1945) there was European roe in Bedfordshire for them to hybridise though.

I'm certain I've read of Siberian releases in England, maybe around Woburn? I'd have to have a flick through a few books, but from memory they were adjudged to have died out without any noticeable improvement in local stocks.

Novice
 
The ultimate authority must be G. Kenneth Whitehead and in his book The Deer of Great Britain and Ireland he mentions reports of Siberian roe in the New Forest, Nottinghamshire, Hertfordshire, and Northamptonshire (Kettering and Yardley) but dismisses all of these reports as misidentification but has this to say about Woburn:

Buckinghamshire

.....I am, however, familiar with the woods around Woburn (Beds) which adjoin Great Brickhill, and although there were, in 1950, three or four Siberian roe in this area, it seems probable that the species is now extinct. Moreover, whilst there are no ordinary roe anywhere in the vicinity of Woburn, muntjac are fairly numerous...."

So it seems that there were a couple loose in the wild around Woburn but, as others have said, there were no ordinary roe in the area at that time for them to hybridise with.
 
Yes, Siberian roe are a different sub species of Capreolus and I have also heard of hybridisation on the fringes of their range. I have never heard of any being released in the UK though. I guess the main problem is, as happened with other strains of imported reds and Wapiti when tried here - the genes are very quickly diluted.

I think feeding/climate (associated factors) affects size/quality more than strain (ref Oz/NZ) as proven when English park reds were released on the hill in Scotland in the 19 century and the animals 'blended in' often after a year or so.

Nick

The issue of red deer and their genetics is interesting. A lot of reds from English parks were introduced to various Scottish deer forests in the 19th/20th centuries to improve the weights and antlers, over 30 forests received Warnham blood, and in general you're correct in that the beneficial effect was in the long term at best muted if not absent, and I agree that this was probably the effect of the poor environment on the open hill. When these deer accessed the newly forested areas like Galloway, all of a sudden there are much bigger heads turning up, which must be the genetics kicking in given decent feeding.

The wild deer in many English and Welsh areas are from park origin and as we know they often have superb antlers and big body weights in many cases. The best antlers in the UK are probably from Warnham Park stock and if you look at the history of the escaped populations in many cases, including Norfolk/Suffolk you can trace it back to Warnham.

The New Zealand reds trace back to two basic original genetic lines, Invermark (Scottish) and English park deer (Woburn and Warnham), and in his books D. Bruce Banwell points out the differences in antler formation with the Invermark deer having classic "royal" characteristics with brow, bey and tray each side with the additional tines in a cup formation on top. Having said that, we know that many Scottish reds have English park blood in them so the Invermark deer may not have been pure Scottish reds. The monstrosities produced in some parts of NZ probably trace back to English park deer with additonal blood from East European maraloid reds and wapiti. I have been watching some clips from a NZ outfitter called Gary Herbert and the massive reds he produces for clients are aesthetically horrible.

I think environment certainly has something to do with it but given good feeding the genetics will kick in and the antler production reflects this. A good example is East Anglia where the reds originate from very good quality English park stock and this is reflected in the current population which produces the majority of UK CIC medals whereas the roe in East Anglia have a German heritage (they were introduced in 1884) and even with the influx of better quality roe from outside East Anglia the area still produces very few medal roe. The area populated by the two species overlaps, so if it were just down to environment alone you'd expect either good or poor heads from both.

As a final point, if genetics are not a factor why do almost all deer managers "leave a good buck/stag in" for it's useful breeding life if it isn't to capitalise on good genetics?
 
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The Kiwi reds of today are very different to the Kiwi reds when Bruce was a lad. Back then it was all about Scottish & English park deer, but since the 80's several more sub species have been added & it's not only the change in antlers which is notable .

Deer managers do recognise the importance of genetics ( & heritability), but also recognise its only one third of the equation when producing trophies.

Sharkey

Edit to add
Would Bruce have appreciated being called a "Dr"?
 
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The Kiwi reds of today are very different to the Kiwi reds when Bruce was a lad. Back then it was all about Scottish & English park deer, but since the 80's several more sub species have been added & it's not only the change in antlers which is notable .

Deer managers do recognise the importance of genetics ( & heritability), but also recognise its only one third of the equation when producing trophies.

Sharkey

Edit to add
Would Bruce have appreciated being called a "Dr"?

He's probably not too bothered as he is sadly no longer with us. :( Obviously the "r" was a typo.

Apart from the East European blood that I mentioned, I'd be interested to know what other sub species have been added to the gene pool.
 
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He's probably not too bothered as he is sadly no longer with us. :( Obviously the "r" was a typo.

Apart from the East European blood that I mentioned, I'd be interested to know what other sub species have been added to the gene pool.

If I leave out the elk/wapiti & sika's then. German (Festl, Schulte Wrede ), Hungarian (Godollo, Mecsek), Yugo (Jelen), Swedish & Danish( C e atlanticus, C e elaphus ).

Sharkey
 
Sorry Paul, I didn't mean genetics don't play a part but what I meant was - what the Scottish hill releases proved is they don't play a significant enough part 'over' environment to make import and release a commercially effective exercise.

On your other point about imported releases to wild stock to improve the genetics the only other cases I know of are below (none are confirmed by the way):

Wapiti (or 'Elk' in America) that were reportedly introduced to the Galloway red herd in the last century. These were most likely from Powerscourt (Park in Ireland) where they had cross bred with the reds. I have never seen any but have heard there are some lighter coloured reds shot occasionally in the West of the range that could be a remaining trait.
Fallow - I heard some years back a continental landowner released some Eastern European does in to his estate in the south of England in an attempt at improving the antler quality of the heard. Reportedly with some success.

An interesting topic.

ATB
Nick
 
Sorry Paul, I didn't mean genetics don't play a part but what I meant was - what the Scottish hill releases proved is they don't play a significant enough part 'over' environment to make import and release a commercially effective exercise.

On your other point about imported releases to wild stock to improve the genetics the only other cases I know of are below (none are confirmed by the way):

Wapiti (or 'Elk' in America) that were reportedly introduced to the Galloway red herd in the last century. These were most likely from Powerscourt (Park in Ireland) where they had cross bred with the reds. I have never seen any but have heard there are some lighter coloured reds shot occasionally in the West of the range that could be a remaining trait.
Fallow - I heard some years back a continental landowner released some Eastern European does in to his estate in the south of England in an attempt at improving the antler quality of the heard. Reportedly with some success.

An interesting topic.

ATB
Nick

Fair points. According to Whitehead there were a couple of wapiti in Galloway, two bulls were introduced to Cumloden near Newton Stewart early in the 20th century but the estate was enclosed. On the nearby Cairnsmore estate owned by the Duke of Bedford (Woburn) about the same time a bull wapiti was kept with a pure bred cow and some red hinds but apparently no pure or cross bred deer were ever released. It's improbable that any wapiti in Galloway came from Powerscourt as there is no record of any transfer from there, however Powerscourt did have wapiti between 1865 and 1880 but by 1880 they had disappeared. I suppose some might have ended up in Galloway but it seems unlikely unless the Cumloden animals originated there as the Cairnsmore stock would most likely have come from Woburn.

If there is any wapiti influence in the Galloway heads they would normally exhibit some throwback of the top tines similar to some East European reds.
 
You are right Paul, now you mention it the old boy did say the top tines were more 'elkine' on the light coloured stags. This was twenty years ago and he was talking about 'some years back.'

Powerscourt was purely an assumption on my part as the Wapiti reportedly came 'on a boat with some sika that were bound for elsewhere' but as you point out Woburn would have been a more likely source and given the roads in those days no reason they wouldn't come by boat from there anyway I suppose.

I only have GKW's 'World' book - out of interest was the above in his 'Deer' or 'Grounds' of UK & Ire book? I fancied the latter but they are nearly £100 on amazon so will have to wait until Xmas!

Nick
 
You are right Paul, now you mention it the old boy did say the top tines were more 'elkine' on the light coloured stags. This was twenty years ago and he was talking about 'some years back.'

Powerscourt was purely an assumption on my part as the Wapiti reportedly came 'on a boat with some sika that were bound for elsewhere' but as you point out Woburn would have been a more likely source and given the roads in those days no reason they wouldn't come by boat from there anyway I suppose.

I only have GKW's 'World' book - out of interest was the above in his 'Deer' or 'Grounds' of UK & Ire book? I fancied the latter but they are nearly £100 on amazon so will have to wait until Xmas!

Nick

I've got all of his books but the information quoted came from "Deer of Great Britain and Ireland" that I got new for my 14th birthday and is possibly my most thumbed book with me being a bit of a distribution anorak.

What is particularly interesting is looking at the information when published in the early 1960s and comparing the distribution of the various species with where they are now. It's a book of over 500 pages but would have to be at least double the size if done again now to the same level of detail. Roe are particularly interesting as the entries for counties such as Gloucester, Warwickshire and Oxfordshire are all about a paragraph long and record no deer present.
 
Thanks Paul, amazing isn't it - how those counties are now full of varying species 50 years on?
 
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