Silence in the Glens; Increasingly excessive deer culling targets

[biglobby]

We seem to be hearing more and more in the press, stories of rising deer populations,backed up by statistics such as increasing RTA’s involving deer etc.
Concerned deer managers, stalkers and landowners across the Scotland in particular are reporting that,as a response, deer populations are effectively being annihilated. This is being undertaken in the name of herd reductions where in fact, what is happening is near total decimation. Slaughters at Glen Affric and Mar Lodge have already made the press, but these are just a small example of a countrywide trend. Blame cannot be laid solely with Forestry concerns, as massive culls have also taken place on private estates; many citing the regeneration of grouse populations as reason . Surely our native Red Deer deserve equal conservation status as the native Red Grouse. Should we undertake to devastate one for the benefit of the other? Forestry concerns are now commonly seeking the services of contract stalkers and as sound as these people may be, to employ anyone on a bounty basis of deer culling, potentially promotes malpractice.
Our wild deer are offered almost no protection under closed-season now and this, coupled with night shooting licenses that are being grossly misused, means that we are treating them like vermin.
I have heard of a contract deer-culler, who amassed a tally of over one thousand head last year, amongst which were 30 ‘Royals’ in the course of this cull.
Could it be that the iconic sound of roaring stags up the glen may soon be no more than an echo of the past?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this...and where, if aywhere we can find a satifactory answer to this very troubling trend.

 

[Gaz]

Have been a regular stalker on numerous estates in the Scottish highlands for many years now, and have seen the numbers of red deer in particular decline considerabley. Several estates as you say "biglobby" have changed from deer management to total deer wipeout. Many shooting twentyfour/seven. Some unfortunate estates that do want to continue the genuine sporting estate have seen their average cull stag age drop to four to five year olds with them hardly finding any old mature stags. Any hinds that are about are scared to hell and don't know where to go for saftey. I here the old stories about estates decimating the deer on a grouse moor as they are a tick carrier, over and over again, but am still not convinced that they are the sole problem. The sooner level headed thoughts and practises are brought in the better. As the old saying goes "you can only shoot something once". How lucky they are to have these beautiful animals roaming their glens and hillsides, once their gone there gone.

 

[westpoint]

Its Certainly starting to have an impact on the way Scotland is viewed abroad some european agents are advising clients that the Mid west/ cairngorms and Monadhliaths have been severely affected and the average age of stags shot by clients have dropped suggesting they try other parts of Scotland or risk disappointment.

 

[Thar]

I stalk in the Argyll and Bute and this year one of the big stalking agents who I have known for several years was saying it was getting very difficult to find stags over 5 years in age for clients, thinking back I have to agree that most stags we are coming across on our lease are younger animals and have been for the last two years.

It needs something doing IMO, what and how god knows.

ATB

Tahr

 

[ecoman]

I'm reminded of the title of the book by Lillian Beckwith, "The hills is lonely". I seldom see deer now on my hill crossings where fifteen years ago I could predict exactly where I would see a parcel - either of stags or hinds. The hills are being denuded of deer and one ecologist actually reckoned that there were blank spaces on the hill which should be occupied by some deer. He presumably did not realise that red deer live in well organised, large family groups called parcels, and that the parcels adjacent to these empty places had been reduced so much due to the promptings of the ecologist factions that there was no necessity for those hind parcels to invade the unoccupied corners outside of their own hefted areas as there was more than adequate fodder, in quantity, on their own historical patch. Unless there was a sudden population increase - as a result of NO winter mortality, (and no matter how much herds are reduced, the late winter and early spring will take its toll). All wild populations, like the Alaskan and Canadian salmon, depend upon large polulations which can withstand the reductions created by nature, but these deaths are not wasted as they in turn provide for the carrion eaters and return nutrients to the soil.

No natural mortality carcasses means a drastic reduction in wild creatures - right down to the smallest birds. Man's attempts to control the herds is a valuable tool, but nature will still have its share.

Deer estates which depend upon the annual 'migration' of rutting stags which break out to wander in search of hinds have observed diminishing stag numbers as they are being shot in greater numbers on the wintering grounds, or they simply do not venture far because there are not the hind numbers to attract them in. A forest with no hinds will attract no stags unless these males are passing through to somewhere that does contain hinds, and in this case the presence of the stags will be transient as the few remaining hinds will be quickly covered and proper rutting activity will cease.

I noticed, and commented upon the increasing emptiness of the hills some years ago, but now the problem is becoming all too evident, even to visiting clients.

A lot of this problem comes down, not to overgrazing by deer which has been one of the main excuses for over-shooting, but a desire on the part of certain bodies to regain over a short period, that which they believed was the landscape of Scotland hundreds of years ago, and in this effort, and I predict, to revert the bulk of the wilder parts of Scotland into one giant national park - policed by " whom? " and for the edification of what ? Tourists ?! They are perfectly willing to denude the hills of deer, literally treating them as vermin, and also removing yet another form of indigenous employment - stalking and ghillieing.

So far there's no real reaction to the denudation of the hills by burning with dropped matches in order to facilitate sheep grazing as this would be a political minefield populated by crofters and sheep farmers. It is much easier to target the big bad landlord and the deer on his lands; both of which have been turned into something a bit politically incorrect.

I can show anyone a deer fence above a main road which very adequately indicates the type of animal on either side. On one side where sheep are grazed the herbage is at a limit of four inches and soiled with droppings and urine. On the other side where there are only deer, the same herbage is knee-high and grazed in a clean and selective manner.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

The population of reds around my bit in Sutherland was smashed by the FC and contractors 2 years ago. I'm not aware of the local policy but I bet it's about fat numbers. 3 years ago I would park and glass multiple good sized groups of deer at this time of year out on the open ground to the front of mine where as now I don't see more than a handful if I'm lucky. The harsh winter a couple of years ago pushed large numbers together near the roadside of some FC ground less than a km from mine and then as if by magic they were gone.

I wouldn't mind so much if they were a problem but one of the FC rangers told me that the deer damage was below their targets.

 

[biglobby]

Having stalked on the same Scottish estate for many years, we have witnessed a fairly dramatic decline in the numbers of mature stags over the last two or three. Whilst the extremes of winter weather may have played a part over this period, I suspect that the two large areas bordering the estate, under the jurisdiction of the Forestry Commission and their systems of deer management (including the introduction of contractors-in addition to their pre-existing rangers) may have a larger part to play. This has also had an effect on the number of stalking clients coming to the estate. If this trend continues we will have no clients (benefitting the local economy) but we will also have no deer.
I really feel that this cannot be allowed to continue on this downward spiral, surely there must be someone in a position of authority we can approach to make our voices heard and reverse this worrying trend?
Any ideas?

 

[bambislayer]

The deer world and especially those who work within it are a fickle lot!

I note with much hilarity Gaz, the picture on your Avatar. I know exactly where that landrover is parked and I was the neighbouring Headkeeper for a number of years, I chuckle that the Keeper who owned the landrover in the pic, absolutely slated me for shooting big stags, yet I never shot one as big as the 1 in your pic!!!!!

It is sad that many Estates are stuggling and I have been a victim of this trend , however Scottish Estates have been their own worst enemy in many cases. It is very easy to blame SNH, FCS etc but at the end of the day, "who sold the land to FCS?". How many Estates actualy entered into the Deer management group system with an open mind?

I agree, we need top take a new approach, but anyone thinking that in this day and age, a sporting estate will sustain it's self through let stalking alone is in a dream world.

Grouse moors are taking a very hard line on deer and grouse bags are showing this approach is working. If you are going to dictate to those East coast owners on how they are to manage deer are you then any better than the ScotGov Beurocrats?

 

[ecoman]

Correct bambislayer. I doubt if a deer forest estate could pay for itself through stalking lets. The age old saying was that running a deer forest was like standing in a shower tearing up ten pound notes, but even within Scotland there are substantial differences in weather patterns between east and west so it would be wrong for any of us to generalise on what's best right across the board.
Private ownership by a caring landlord is the cheapest form of land maintenance there is to the taxpayer - and the taxpayer now has the right to roam. Even seasonal clients will help alleviate a little of the cost.
I doubt, for the present, than many west coast forests could raise and support commercially shootable numbers of grouse as it's simply much too wet and chilly - especially during the critical hatching season which I suspect is a breath-holding gamble at best.
As it is, heavily shot deer herds on the west are further endangered by wickedly wet and chilly early springs which creates a substantial mortality in the last-years flush of calves. This has nothing to do with the amount of grub available as the herds have been radically reduced, but it is all about weather - and perhaps the nutritional content, or lack, in the fodder intake.

There's nothing that can be done regarding the nutritional value, (Other than bought-in winter feeding), and the deer have evolved to cope with it, so shelter and warmth must be the remaining key, and the deer are, in many cases, shot out of that.
It has been shown on one West highland estate that the 'feeder' stags did not in fact do better than their non-feeder cousins on the hill. The feeder stags remained largely where they were awaiting the next sweetie handout, but here we are in a cleft-stick situation as feeding might help ease an older beast through for the shot the following season - which might otherwise have died that spring.

I also agree with the comment on not ALL estates joining in on their deer management groups with an open mind. Some certainly did not but had private agendas of their own whilst paying public lip service. Some continued with the attitude that they were above it all and would do exactly what they pleased, and it was these people who put the wedges in the door which allowed various parties to say, "Look, it's not working and they are misbehaving".
Then the ill concealed threats of contract shooter incursion began and the more amenable estates did their best to comply whilst a 'carrot and stick' offer was put on the table.

Now for the question - the one similar to that made by the little boy in the children's story book who exclaimed that, "Look ! The King has no clothes on".
To what end is this shooting all about ? I walk on the hill and all I see is useless waving molinnia grass which falls over and dies on itself, strangling the remaining herbage underneath and creating a coat of cover for voles and other rodents so that habitual rodent hunters on the wing cannot see them. Nothing is benefitting, the hills are almost derelict, there are many fewer large herbivore animals to dung and fertilise the ground, there are no carcasses to feed the dependent carrion eaters - martens, foxes, badgers, eagles, buzzards. Many less dung and carrion beetles and flies upon which all sorts of small mammals live such as shrews.
Hoooray ! sez the anti carrion-eater trapper. But think a minute. Every single animal and insect is a link in the ecological chain, and without the carnivores there would be NO trapper - in these days - mostly shooting-by-lamp. Wityhout a base reason there is no requirement for employment of a vermin control person or the hobbyist shooter.
Without our largest herbivore the hills will become much less for everyone and everything. What on earth does this wanton killing do for anyone when there are no discenible benefits from it's aftermath?

 

[forestgimp1]

If more private estates were to provide better habitat/shelter for the deer which use their ground, perhaps they would have less mortalities and fewer deer would need to risk the bullet by going into forestry plantations.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

The idea of having "sanctuary" areas for deer within a sporting estate is not a new one.
While it would be great to have areas that were more attractive than FC ground for wandering deer, ultimately might this mean creating areas of forestry on areas of hill which in turn would not be conjusive to Grouse habitat which like it or not is the life blood of many Sporting Estates.

The impact and reality of recent changes in the way that deer management is carried out in the Scottish Highlands is new ground for us all and hopefully as "stakeholders" we can all raise our concerns and ideas and find a way forward which will ultimately produce a healthy National Deer herd without comprimising on land management goals.

An impossible task??????.....time will tell, but lets hope that all concerned remember that the iconic image of magnificent Highland Stags of all ages should not be one that is confined to the history book.

I would be very interested to be apprised of the economic value to local communities of regenerated birch compared to that of the presence of healthy and well managed deer.

Regards
BP

 

[ecoman]

The idea of providing shelter for deer - as you rightly comment upon forestgimp - is not new, but again it comes down to lashing out even more money in order to do so. Grants have been available for fencing and planting conifers, and if these are srategically place will help provide shelter belts, but in order to do so the forestry Commission had to be satisfied that the plantation would be a viable one. The benefit would be some years down the road, but shelter against the fences which protected the trees would be a help. It also has to be borne in mind that the loss of ground in order to grow protected trees as against grazing for the animals has to be considered
BUT. This does not get around the fact that hill deer, if managed in suitable quantities and carefully culled will manage to pull through with enough to spare after natural mortality in order to have a viable breeding stock. Overshooting in order to play computer numbers games is not working with nature - it's working against it. You cannot burn the candle at both ends as nature is not a thinking creature, it will not draw back. It is man who has to try and anticipate, then act accordingly, not obey the dictates of some PC projection. It should also be remembered that much of the historical wintering ground and low-ground shelter is being removed from deer access.

 

[Dan Gliballs]

Unfortunately the problem with shelter belts is that at the start there is a financial gain to be had with them BUT once the fence has done its job and the trees are at a level where they would provide shelter the scheme is out of grant and nobody wants to pay for the fence to be taken down!!

 

[sikamalc]

Having stalked a number of estates in the highlands over a good many years, and also being lucky enough to have and still have a large lease in the highlands in my opinion what has already been mentioned in the number of mature stags being in decline I completely agree with.

Trees, trees trees and more trees, fences, fences and more fences thats where some of the problem lies, and the people who sit in an office planning all of this without a care in the world about deer their welfare or their prosperity.

Many will say we need trees, and yes we do, but it was man that cut down the forests, not the deer and they are now being pushed into smaller and smaller areas which cannot sustain them and then they come inot conflict with crofters, foresters etc. I would be interested to know how many night licences are issued in Scotland. It would also be interesting to know how many actually do have the appropriate calibre and trained dog at hand to carry it out. But then deer are just a target at night and their is little skill in killing a deer with a lamp.

Some will say their is, but that will take a lot to convince me.

 

[Steyer 6.5]

Twenty years ago I shot my first deer in the highlands and everywhere I drove I saw deer reds and roe. I was last in Scotland near Blairgowrie and was lucky enough to stay in cottage literally in the middle of nowhere and during the night reds walked with a foot of the window and as I stood under the moon in wellies and dressing gown could not believe my eyes as I saw a couple of hundred (possibly an under estimate) stags and hinds grazing under the cover of dark. It is an image that will remain with me forever and is what the highlands should be and most people believe to be like.

I was there getting married which as long failed. The loss of the marriage does not upset me but after reading your posts I have a heavy heart and am sad that I might be able to bring my so. To Scotland and have the experience I had and also that I might never be able to see it let alone stalk these animals of they are allowed to be decimated.


You guys in Scotland, no all of us need to lobby if what you have posted is happening. The word we are looking for is BALANCE.

Can one of your scottish guys explain what the contract stalkers are all about?

Come on guys you know what is best.

 

[digitalwildcams]

Have to agree balance is the word. Deer have their part to play in the overall picture of the habitat. Unfortunately the press are extending these areas that are or have been classed as over populated, into country a country wide problem. This causes the general public look on deer as an overall problem throughout the country which simply isn't true.

There are a lot of stalkers who consider themselves as "deer managers". There is more to deer management than pulling a trigger. We must consider habitat and other factors when managing "The Herd". Problems with deer are not restricted to Scotland. At a recent meeting in the South East of England a question of what is the buck/doe ratio on a particular property (1000 acres). The reply was one in twenty were bucks! Then there is a large estate in Scotland, in excess of 30,000 acres who has a program of drastic population reduction that is adversely affecting the adjoining estates. This highlights the necessity to gain the knowledge on just how "the population" use the landscape which highlights the need for cooperation. Those individuals that have their little pockets of stalking simply are not managing deer.

Lets not forget the trend to fence deer out of grouse areas and eradicate the deer inside the fenced areas. This is designed to reduce the tick burden within the fenced area to reduce the tick borne disease problems in the grouse population.

 

[Steyer 6.5]

Completely agree Wildcam. I am lucky enough (not) to live in the mainly concrete ridden midlands and all the bird species and mammals I see are pests. Black tak, magpies, woodies, Charlie and grey squirrel. It's not until I go out stalking that I see woodpeckers, muntis and more interesting species. There is no balance anywhere when I can count 26 magpies and a dozen woodies at my bird table and surrounding trees. Yes I do my bit with air rifle and nest boxes for encouraging tots and song birds.

When it comes to managing deer and numbers and ratios. It is the 21st century and with flir cams, night vision and trail cams, helicopter heat sensing cameras we should have exact figures or if not a minut margin of era to work out cull figures and do forth.

It is your usual government spin and agencies that massacre the herds. Will inone day visit a placque (on this spot the last red stag was shot?????)

 

[User00003]

I stalk on 10,000 acres in argyll, the hill is located between two massive blocks of FC woodland. I know we've had 2 harsh winters, but I would guestimate deer population has gone from approx. 500 hinds and 200 stags to perhaps more in the region of 300 hinds and 100 stags (mostly young stags). Now, is this due to the reds seeking into the FC grounds during the harsh winter and getting culled hard? not sure.

Not entirely sure about the deer population as are guestimates based on what I see about at various times of year, nor the ratio between hinds and stags, but I wouldn't say I'm too far off.

what are others experiences on the hill with sex ratios? also, what would other members with similar ground (non forestry) expect to have as a red population in comparison?

 

[bogtrotter]

A depressing picture, but a few observations.

Forestry is not the problem forestry in the wrong place is, too much planting in the glen bottoms and too big in size
preventing deer getting to low ground in bad weather, not just a case of being shot in forestry but I have seen plenty of carcases against a deer fences where they have tried to get to low ground in a storm and could not. corridors left to let deer get to the glen bottoms would help.

East coast estates removing deer to improve grouse numbers, yes| but I am old enough to remember when a lot of these estates did not carry huge amounts of deer the dramatic rise in deer numbers being a fairly recent phenomenon.

Contract stalkers there is nothing new about contract stalking I was contracting thirty years ago and I certainly was not the only one.

Night shooting, I don't know if things have changed or not but when I was night shooting at least twenty years ago we had a pretty tight code to stick to night shooting licences were not that easy to get, were only granted for small groups of deer, when hopefully the group could all be removed at once, were only granted for short periods at a time, and were only granted when it was considered that other methods would be ineffective.

Open hill cull figures are set by SNH whom attempt to count all areas at least every five years with hot spots counted more often, can be yearly where there are problems.

Now as to whether we agree with the cull figures given by SNH thats a subject for another discussion.

Landowners be they forestry or agricultural must be able to protect their interests if that means out of season or night shooting using contract stalkers or not, so be it.

SNH is the body issuing the licences so its up to them to see that its regulated, and maybe its up to us to keep an eye on SNH.

I think that long term we have got to except a reduction in deer numbers for many years they were too high in a lot of areas though maybe not all.

If you remove deer from an area or add competition be that forestry grouse sheep or what ever you must reduce the overall deer population accordingly.

I could go on and on but I think I have rambled enough, though I know what I am trying to say I am having difficulty expressing it.

 

[ecoman]

Quite right Dan Gliballs. in many instances all estate interest is quickly lost when it comes to THEM footing the bill. In many cases they entered into the forestry contract with thin margins of profit but the truth is that 'after-sales-service' by estates with very little manpower is minimal. To see rusty fencing wire hanging uslessly in festoons beside a main road is bad enough, but the potential foot snares for the deer, and antlers wound about with old plain wire are wicked.

This subject could go in for ever, but I just cannot get my head around the sheer time, money and manpower involved in this fashion for deer eradication. I can understand the drive to try and get more trees on the ground - and if only the forestry authorites would listen to practical men on the ground about placement and shape, the extension of treed lands might actually benefit the deer without undue confrontation, but it has become plain that the expediency of choosing the most cost efficient fence route takes precedence over all other considerations - despite the concept that the expansion of treed areas is to benefit nature. It's a typical example of "spoiling the ship for a hapeworth of paint".
Bringing Scotland back to 1600 A.D. is all very well, but the Scotland of that time had many more big creatures strolling about dunging the land. Can you imagine a TRUE reversion of self sustainment on such a small island - which the UK actually is - where people have to earn a living by modern standards ?
Anchorage in Alaska has it's share of bears and moose ambling about its streets - mainly at night, but modern man's incursion is still faily recent in such places so its still a case of man having to adapt - to a degree.
Can you imagine Inverness, Edinburgh and Glasgow with bears - boar - wolves - martens and wildcats - maybe wolverine and beaver - and many other creatures invading it's suburbs and mucking-up the even tenor of their lives ?! NO deer of course.
As it stands, a few day of disruption by mother nature in the form of snow in the streets creates situations where business tycoons consider sueing the councils.

Perhaps the script writers for Walt Disney found themselves in the wrong office, but you might ponder on the fact that prior to beaver being released officially, they were already instated by some 'worthy' soul - or souls - and there was no outcry about that because they were, presumably, from a select and favoured group - as were the hedgehogs set loose in the hebrides.